Defense against WC?

[scotty1]

Hi, I just saw this on another forum. Its advice to a JKD guy about dealing with a wc guy. What do you think?

"He'll come at you square - left hand above the right, hands above each other on the "center line". He'll simultaneously trap and hit. FEINT, THEN CRACK HIM!

Never heard of a Wing Chun guy who feints...

You should always jab. These guys use "sticky hands", and will smack it down and quickly come straight in. Tie up his hands and move him back. Crouched attacks with the left hook ala tyson will work well.

Wing Chun guys will come straight at you with straight blasts. They will try to end it quickly. If you're a range fighter, it will be difficult. Brawlers work best against wing chun guys. Back him up. Wing Chun guys don't fight well, generally, backing up.

Low jab then a crunching left hook will do well, because wing chun guys don't train for hooks.

Did I mentin to back him up? "

Is it true wc doesn't train a defense against hooks? I find that very hard to believe.

[dezhen2001]

Just because WC doesn't train hooks doesn't mean that we can't defend against them... We train to recognise energy and how to deal with the different types, not specific types of attack. The same could be said for defence against roundhouse kicks, crescent kicks etc. We don't train them, but can defend against them

I think the feint then crack him, was directed as a tactic of what to do??

Personally, it depends on the WC guys experience. We don't just move straight in and straight back u know, we don't try to stick if we can just hit... so many other variables so how can u make a sweeping generalization like that?

just my thoughts,
david

[popsider]

"He'll come at you square - left hand above the right, hands above each other on the "center line". He'll simultaneously trap and hit. FEINT, THEN CRACK HIM! "

Isn't he going to get out of the way of the hit? He's saying let the wc guy the first hit - great - suits me.

"Brawlers work best against wing chun guys. Back him up. Wing Chun guys don't fight well, generally, backing up. "

Brawlers! - great to see he's got confidence in his JKD. I'd have thought wc works well backing up too - because we don't rely on committing the shoulder or body in a hit we can fight moving back as well as we can moving forward (not sure I expressed that too well - what I mean is I can't imagine throwing a haymaker and stepping back at the same time - I can hit straight and step back and put the hip etc into it).

"Low jab then a crunching left hook will do well, because wing chun guys don't train for hooks. "

Oh no we've been rumbled !

[Mr Punch]

1)If he feints, hit him.

2)If he hooks, hit him.

3)If he tries to back you up, hit him.

This man shows a startling lack of knowledge about wing chun. I would like to fight him!

1)We only need to trap if we cannot strike. If we strike and it is intercepted, trap and strike again. Most feints look like feints, and more importantly, feel like feints. If he feints, hit him.

2)If he hooks, he is leaving his centreline open. Hit him. If he guards his centreline with the other hand, trap it and hit him. However, DZ, if you have ever really been rocked by a good hook, you would know that you have to train for it, even if only to recognize what's coming, before you fall over with a broken nose. It still stands, however, that if he hooks, hit him.

3)How many wingchunners practice being backed up? ... Thought not...! If you are backed up you are often in danger of losing your balance and your centreline, and you won't be able to strike with anything. However, if this happens, you have already lost your wing chun basics. If he is coming on strong, use his energy and, er, hit him. You may like to try bong, lop, hit/bong, elbow/lop, hit, etc... but basically hit him!

Am I sounding a little dogmatic?!?

[dezhen2001]

Hi Mat, liked your post very 'simple and direct'

Actually i know not to underestimate a good hook... i did boxing for 5 yrs and muay thai for 1 But what i was saying is that although we don't train thattechnique, we have means of dealing with the type of energy it uses...

Practising getting backed up against something (a wall, or even at the edge of a table for instance) is actually rather interesting. I remember when i played table chi sau with my Sifu - a very enlightening experience. Not that i'm any better now of course

david

[Mr Punch]

OK. Didn't know you boxed. I haven't since I was 9! You know what I mean then! In both the styles of wc I've practised in, we've trained against hooks though anyway. Most of my brothers can't chuck a good one. I think the biggest problem most wcer beginners have with them is following them...

Table chi sau eh? Hope you hit him with a few pings and pongs!?
... I'm really really sorry...

[jweir]

I don't think this guy's advice is as bad as some say it is. We all know the best way to beat a Wing Tsun fighter is to use better Wing Tsun. He's just pointing out where, if the WC person they're fighting has holes in his technique, those holes will likely be.

He clearly does know a thing or two about fighting WC people. He knows that since our goal is to go forward, we're not as effective if we're backing up. He doesn't say HOW to back us up, but the advice isn't terrible. He also knows that since we don't throw a lot (or any) hooking punches, our ability to defend them can be under-practiced. It's very easy to say "hit him because his punch isn't on center" but sometimes a punch will miss. Some people can take a few punches. If that person gets inside and survives, his hook might just land on your jaw and KO you.

The biggest mistake that I saw in his advice was that he didn't mention footwork in any way. Even in the Wing Chun world, people often ignore the fact that footwork can be way, way more effective than all the sticky hands and straight blasts in the world. When someone tries to get inside and "brawl" he might end up flat on his back before a punch is even thrown.

[dezhen2001]

Most definately the Pong <--- from fear (bad joke i know). It's actually pretty interesting as you can't back up more or you will fall off... trains you to turn to the side and use small amounts of footwork quite well. As well as breakfalling!

The thing about hooks is that most people who haven't trained in them tend to do the haymaker style one, which is nothing like a boxers hook... That's why Sifu sometimes uses me to demo hooks

That's why i originally said that there are so many other variables to take in to consideration... how we move as we go back, do we just absorb and use gong lik... it depends on the level of the person. Not everyone reacts the same, unless you have learned a prearranged defence or whatever, but as chi sau isn't fixed, everyone develops the skill in their own way.

just what i think,
david

[anerlich]

The same could be said for defence against roundhouse kicks, crescent kicks etc. We don't train them, but can defend against them

You are speaking for yourself here. IMO If you never see a good roundhouse kick, axe kick or whatever, you never learn to deal with the dynamics of what they are really like. If all your classmates throw crap roundhouse kicks or hooks, you'll get good at dealing with crap roundhouse kicks and hooks, but when someone really good at them comes along, you'll get hammered by something you haven't seen. If you really think your ability to handle the crappy haymaker your classmate throws is going to prepare you to deal with a proper hook thrown by a trained boxer (and I accept that some posters know boxing), I'd be making sure my medical insurance was at the top level.

My Sifu has a kicking arsenal better than 98% of the TKD BB's out there. He also had over 100 pro and amateur kickboxing fights winning many with head kick KO's. We train roundhouse, side, hook kicks day in day out, as well as hooks, shovels, uppercuts, knees, elbows, headbutts, etc. If we're contending with a round kick from a classmate, we KNOW it's got some real sting in it.

I've noticed a tendency amongst many WC guys to fight with the head up, exposing the chin, because they're trying to watch both theirs and the opponent's hands. People with a slack pak sao often tend to try and bat the lead elbow of the jab down to the blind side, which is a perfect setup for the opp to circle over the block and lead hook straight off the jab, which works even better if the pak sao guy also has his chin stuck out. Or even just follow up with a second jab to the outside of the pak sao.

Don't even get me started on what happens if the WC guy gets taken off his feet.

It's very dangerous to be complacent about Wing Chun because of the alleged mechanical efficiency. Straight line techs are faster than circular, but few boxers or circular kickers will lead with such a tech, they'll try to set you up first. And your "fast" straight punch may be slower than his "slow" hook. Unless you train HARD.

The classic WC demo is a hapless straw man TKD BB throwing a single big roundhouse or spin hook kick at the WC hero's head, the WC hero "easily" countering this with a low side or stomp kick to the knee, thus "proving" the superiority of WC.

BOOLSHEEIT. a good kicker is going to set up a big kick like that with his hands, and use deception and feints to set it up. The game is somewhat different then.

I still believe good WC will match it with anything else out there. But IMO ordinary or crap WC is much worse than ordinary or crap boxing or kickboxing.

Complacency in your training could be fatal.

[popsider]

First off I agree that we probably don't train against good hooks because most of us are not skilled in delivering a hook - or at least we are not as skilled at that as a boxer or similar.
I'm not sure what people mean about being backed up. I don't agree that wing chun always goes forwards - in chi sao if you have to go back you go back - against a more skilled person it happens all the time - I reckon that is a strength of wc not a weakness. I've never been in a wc class that did not practice footwork for going backwards as well as forwards.

Also like someone else said - what does it mean to advise people to back an opponent up - in simple terms if he wants to back me up he better have the tools to do it - it's a bit like saying the best tactic is to hit them, or knock them over - it's not necessarily something in his control. If he is just going to come forward whatever then he's playing into my hands.

He's got a lot of preconceptions and preconceptions are dangerous .

[Shadowboxer]

It's not true that we don't train against hooks. And, we have hooks in the first form- the tight boxer style hook. Whoever suggested this didn't take into account Footwork- while hitting, while trapping and hitting, and even backing up, momentarily, to find the better angle. WC can deflect/punch/kick a knee all while backing up. We also do a corner drill in the event that we can't back up to learn to turn the tables and put the attacker in the corner.

[chessGMwannabe]

"He'll come at you square - left hand above the right, hands above each other on the "center line".

that is the only part of that that really sound like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. afterall, all wingchunners are tought from day one, 'this is the way that you should start every fight' just like you could expect any tkder to start any fight by closing the gap with a roundhouse kick.
the rest of it I can take, it's kind of abstract, like back him up, (easier said than done) but like someone else said, it's not a bad idea. it's doubtful to hold against a strong wingchunner, but how many of us always do perfect wing chun. and I could think of some students that have similar holes in their kung fu.
but even if it was 'you might expect him to come in . . . . ' but I could picture some dude trying to take that guys advice, and feeling pretty stupid when the wingchunner didn't start out by doing anything at all, and this jkd guy is trying to find some way to start an attack and has no idea how to start BACKING him up from an undefined position.

overall, it's the artist not the art, duh. there is not defense to wing chun. because if you took the ten best wingchunners alive, their wingchun would all look different. you can't fight a stereotyped wingchunner, becuase they don't exhist. learn person by person, fight by fight, minute by minute.

regards
kevin

[old jong]

It is so funny (sad for the other guy!) when some people think that a certain formula will work for sure against something...."He will do this,so...do this!"...What if he does'nt?...
A good Wing Chun guy will not "react" like a stupid robot! He will not only "trap"(I hate that term!) or blindly "chain punch"...This is beginner stuff and this thing was written by somebody who only knew little about Wing Chun.

[AndyM]

Freely admitting that I am a complete beginner in WC, I believe I have a good Sifu!

I was told I was only allowed to step backwards once!!!

Any thoughts?

AndyM

[dezhen2001]

there are other ways of stepping, not just straight back - to the side, diagonally back, round and back, forwards... it depends on the situation Sometimes i step back too much also, and it's something i have to try and change... If you have to step, then step, no point in limiting what you can do as that increases pressure and stress. imho anyway

Well, remember i'm a newbie as well compared to most of the other guys here. But this is what i have found when i play chi sau. If there is a limit or restriction put on stepping or whatever it can add more pressure, which makes it harder to relax... It depends on if you are training a specific thing such as turning, and moving round, then it's different.

i'm sure some of the others can offer more insight than me

david