By my lying eyes

[curtis]

WOOPS
I am sorry I didn't realize that were two David here.
The question was addressed to Planetwc,(david)
But since I have you Sensei David Kunz, I can think of question in your direction about closing.
To my understanding Bruce Lees basic closing mainly came from wing chun, not fencing. As I understand it, some element fencing was added for individual closes, but the shuffle steping movement (I call the direct close) was more or less a wing chun close only slightly modified.
Granted I could be wrong.

I believe it is the use or, the ability to move the body in a single unit, that makes traping so effective.

Do you (or anyone) have drills or exercisers to increase your sensitivity through the use of the body?

I see spring energy as a whole, comes from the body. But can be broken down into two elements for the understanding and control .those elements are body spring load (used for power) and arm spring energy (used for traping)
I believe you must be able to identify the two types of energy in order to understand traping. Arm spring energy is easily trapped. But body spring energy is too strong and must be redirected (or to say the least, you must give away from it, because it is to powerful. That is unless you can identify it, and redirect it before it is actually applied.)

I am out a time!!.
In closing I am trying to understand sensitivity/traping in a broader sense, I would like to hear anyone and everyone's ideas on the topic.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

[Sensei Kunz]

Yes, originally it did come from wing chun in his Seattle years, because as we all know, trapping is a major part of wing chun, just as it is in many styles of Kung-Fu.

Regarding the fencing movement, I am almost positive he incorpoated this in his Los Angeles days. The push shuffle was used as a blast foward using your strong side forward for maximum effect and having your strongest tools closest to your opponent. The key is to be able to develop the power through proper training on delivery of speed and power. I am not sure if the push shuffle was a scientific method or part of wing chun, however, I can ask Tim Tackett or Bob Bremer and find out the exact information.

The movement of using the body as a whole unit for maximum power delivery in every hit or kick is a must. This cannot be accoplished without proper flow from one delivery into another. The key is to always use the whole body in every technique, never using it seperately. By using the footwork with trapping, the sensitivity training is more explosive. This is something that you do not want to divide into seperate units.

Your foundation and base (footwork) is the main core of JKD. The speed of evasion and counter or simple direct attack are more faster than the usual stances that have been taught over thousands of years. Of course, there are many more elements that are imperative, such as the lead hand and arm positioning upon attack or defense that is a must when entering into combat for attack, including trapping.

You are right about being to fast in moving into your opponent for it to work properly with trapping. however, with propert training in using the body as a whole and sensitivity training by redirecting the bodyy's movement in flow that makes it work, but only as a whole unit. Again, the body cannot be divided into two!

Exercises:

Must have a willing working opponent that will resist. JKD is best trained upon knowing technique when you have a willing partner who will assist in training by being resistant.

Have your partner attack with hands, either one or combinations and practice evasion and counter or interception. Upon contact with open hand parries, feel your oppenents energy and muscle tension as you redirect your whole force with his movement with this keep in mind, you must be able to flow with correct footwork to keep advantage of your opponent. By this I mean, shifting the body by the footwork in two or three inch steps, either lead or rear foot for better positioning and ustilize your trapping skills. You will know and feel whcih way to go, if not, experiment for your own feel. See what work for you! Upon trapping, pull your opponent slightly or aggressively and feel his reaction upon delivery of hit. He may react where you may feel easier to go from trapping to grappling?

I have always favored going to my oppents back side in any situations for grapping and take-down technique after delivery of a hit or two.

I hope this helps!

Your Servant

Sensei Kunz

[curtis]

Thank you
the exercise to describe, sounds like a very good one for the reinforcing of basic neural responses, although the question in sensitivity/traping is to identify and learn new responses, it seems to me your exercise could be even more useful if you moved in slow motion (as if doing TAI CHI) trying to identify the first element, as it happens, and then to respond correctly.
If you can identify the individual element, (the start-up) then you can experiment with different types of responses. ( Example when to lop soa or fook soa, or to press trap and or dissipate the opponents energy.)
the identify and learning new ways of handling energy is the challenge,.
I like to do the exercise describe while wearing a blindfold. Once in contact with the opponents the sense of touch becomes even more critical.
The trick of it is to maintain your offensive and the defensive posture at the same time. Both hands must work together, along with the body, in order to identify and respond to the energy that is given to you. (Much like chi soa, hands in the body must work together.)
A basic flow exercise could also be useful. (My definition of a flow exercise, is any exercise that uses repetition in order to get the brain out of the way. Once you're in the flow of things then to have the secondary disrupt that flow. The purpose for a flow drill is to see how your body can react to change/disruption.)
A basic example would be basic chung choy's with the secondary interrupting the flow with blocking movement every so often. And seeing how the primary handles change as it happens.
DOSE anyone have any more ideas or drills, to work on sensitivity/different ways of handling energy?
The drills are the trick!
Thanks again.
Sincerely yours
C.A.G.

[planetwc]

Originally posted by curtis
David
you never ansered my question on the mook jong .
Granted the mook jong is a good tool, it can be used in many different ways to perform and achieve YOUR individual goals, like stretching, flow, traping, basic foot work and reinforcing of power lines (structural integrity of your stances)
BUT HOW CAN IT BE USED FOR SENSITIVITY???
C.A.G.

Primarily the Wing Chun Mook Jong is used to train position and delivery of attacks to targets. That said in the establishment of position, there is an amount of sensitivity involved. By that I mean remember what the arms on the dummy represent. You want to have the correct POSITION as you transition through the hands. That said, in the establishment of position and the transition during flow there is sensistivity involved.

As with Chi Sao, your eyes should not be looking at the hands or your feet, but at the eyes/head of the opponent (or virutal representation of that in the jong's case).

So as you execute the "hands" you are establishing:

1. Your body distance from the jong itself.
2. The OPTIMAL placement of your limbs in regards to delivery of attacks, neutralizations and transitions to attacks.
3. The minimal amount of energy needed to deliver.
4. Footwork.
5. Posture and spinal alignment.

In doing so, you feel where your limbs are in relationship to the limbs and body core of the dummy. You are engaged in sensitivity.

While I would say it is a judgement call as to position vs sensitivity; for sake of argument here lets say it is 70/30. The actual percentages may be more extreme, but this should suffice for our discussion.

Remember Chi Sao is still there as the prime activity for sensitivity and "chaos theory" in operation.

I hope this answer helps. I took the time to wait till my last class and the opportunity to stand next to the jong and watch corrections on the first 10 hands recently by my teacher.

Again, I am coming at this from a Wing Chun perspective.

regards,

David Williams

[planetwc]

Originally posted by Sensei Kunz
Well stated!

The main core of JKD is footwork which has not been incorporated into the traditional styles, this is what made the flow of different technique applications even more useful in delivery. Without footwork from fencing then there is no JKD.

Sensei Kunz

Given the breadth of traditional Chinese armed and unarmed combat I'm not sure I would make that argument.

There are literally hundreds of arts with ALL kinds of footwork.

That said, Wing Chun has it's own footwork as well. Much of the approach of rapid entry (ie closing the gap) and zeroing in on your hapless opponent IS there. It is present particularly in the footwork of Bil Jee and biu ma stepping. It is unclear to me the degree to which Bruce was really deeply trained in those aspects.

Therefore, it is only NATURAL to me that he would look outside for answers, when he seemingly didn't see them in his base art. If you look at a lot of the other Wing Chun guys who emigrated to the US, many of them dived into other arts given their lack of "finishing" of the style at that point in time. Many of them have since had the time to delve more deeply into their mother art and found the footwork or other "answer" they were looking for.

I think you have to look at the basic set of tools folks like he and Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung used to fight on the rooftops in Hong Kong. It simply took stepping forward with chain punches on the centerline to defeat the other stylists. That works well when your opponent is not seasoned, or has an answer for that. But when they do, you are going to need more out of the toolkit, and that only works if you have those tools. If you don't then you are going to want to look somewhere for a solution.

[curtis]

Planetwc (David)
thank you . The mook jong is a good tool. But it is only a tool, and it is only as good as person whose using it.
Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, a Master can use an ordinary tool, extraordinary. But a novice cannot hope to achieve the same results as the Master. (The novice, does not have time or experience, to achieve the same results.)
The way I was taught, To perceive things is, to break them down into there smallest elements, then to make drills at work on the individual attributes that make the techniques work.
It's like putting together a puzzle, each attribute is a piece of the puzzle, (once you figured out how that piece fits into the larger scheme of things you can move on.) The big picture is too large for any one at beginning to comprehend. Although after you have built a solid foundation you start to see how these pieces fit together to create the puzzle (or picture).
Of course we may have differences of opinion, on how and why things are done. It does not make one right, or one wrong. It just means that they are different. I respect that ! I do what I do because ..., I realized I do not have all the answers so I am always on the quest for personalized excellence. I have no right to the judge others, ("WELL" most others,OK! There are the jerks of the world, that need to be put straight, but I still listened to their point of view. And I try not to judge too often.)
HAY IM ONLY HUMAN!!!!
"O" by the way, what is this chaos theory? (I think I understand but I am not a hundred percent sure. If you could enlighten me I would be obliged .)
Thanks again, and I will be talking to you (and everyone) later.
Sincerely yours
C.A.G.

[planetwc]

Originally posted by curtis
Planetwc (David)
thank you . The mook jong is a good tool. But it is only a tool, and it is only as good as person whose using it.
"O" by the way, what is this chaos theory? (I think I understand but I am not a hundred percent sure. If you could enlighten me I would be obliged .)
Thanks again, and I will be talking to you (and everyone) later.
Sincerely yours
C.A.G.

I like the line that Jeff GoldBlum's character in the first Jurassic Park uses to describe Chaos theory. To me it can and should apply to Chi Sao. The Wing Chun sets have the conceptual principles of the art hardwired into them. We practice these sets in a deliberate manner to attempt to wire them into our neural processes, so that we simply react reflexively in given ranges and contexts from the toolbox of principles and their actions.

That said Chi Sao adds Chaos Theory in. You want to be able to touch as many different hands as you can. Each person brings alls sorts of things to the "mix" of interaction between you.

1. Too Stiff
2. Too Soft
3. Slow
4. Fast
5. Height differential
6. Strength and it's use
7. Conditioning
8. Control
9. Level of skill
10. reaction time
11. Reaction
12. "Flavor" of attack/defense

The list goes on. You mix those in with your own personal attributes and engage in flowing chi sao and suddenly anything can happen. That is the whole point. There is no fixed or static response. You are dealing with aliveness. Even if that aspect is not in the intent of your partner, but you have it, it is there.

It is the ability to adapt and respond to the interactions which are taking place. Rolling with someone 4' 6" is different from someone 6'4". The angles are different. The bridge is different.
The body structure is different.

Good old chaos theory in action. Real time adaptation of the "model" of Wing Chun principles and attributes to the real world, real time.

[planetwc]

Originally posted by curtis
Planetwc (David)
thank you . The mook jong is a good tool. But it is only a tool, and it is only as good as person whose using it.
Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, a Master can use an ordinary tool, extraordinary. But a novice cannot hope to achieve the same results as the Master. (The novice, does not have time or experience, to achieve the same results.)

The Mook Jong is indeed a good tool.
There is a reason why it is normally exposed AFTER the 3 sets and chi sao in Wing Chun Kuen.

And the "hands" of the jong (or movements) are normally taught in groups of ten. And the first 10 are the most complex for a student to deal with. Once you can get by the "busyness" (sorry the best word I can use) of those hands, it is downhill from there with the rest.

It is inappropriate for the novice to go where they aren't yet ready. Some student learning to fly a cessna should not expect to hop in an F111 Strike Eagle and engage in precision flying like the Blue Angels or Top Gun pilots.

They aren't READY yet. Same thing in Wing Chun.

The sets, drills and Chi Sao are there to develop the attributes, the Jong is there to build on those attributes and reinforce position and 3 dimensional positioning in relation to an opponent.
Aside from which the student just needs "baking in" time to burn in the training to have a foundation to expand on. You have to build the foundation and walls before you can put the roof on a building. Same thing for combative arts.

regards,

David

[curtis]

David
I agree with everything you have stated. The goal to make technique into a neural response is critical. The brain is too slow to process information, as quickly as it is needed in a confrontation, so you must find a way to hard wire certain information directly into the body (neural response) GUNGFU GUY stated earlier the analogy of touching a hot surface. And that is exactly what a neural response is. (An automatic response).
the big problem with many martial artist's is that they think too much. That is they anticipate, ( trying to prodict or guess what will happen.) it's like the old song goes {{ anticipation its making the wait.}} (the keyword is making, you do not want your opponent make you do anything, you must respond to his movements and not react to them. There is a subtle difference and that difference is what makes traping work)
in my understanding of traping. The goal is to feel/listen to what the opponent is doing and respond to the motion instead of reacting to it.
The term react, leads me to think, my opponent is in control, and I have to react after his movement has started. (Basically blocking)
where respond for responding leads me maintain control, THUS it allows to move when the opponent moves, not after. (Allowing me to easily redirect energy before it is allowed to grow.)
exercises like chi soa, phon soa, lin sil di dar (both the concept, and the exercise) make traping so very dynamic. I will also used to mook jong to reinforce the basic positions as well to teach how to flow from one hand and the other, the dummy also helps students learn how to maintain control, (since of touch.) Basically one hand will not let go until the other first replaces it. (Always paying attention to being offensive and defensive at the same time.)
So you see the mook jong can be use in a non-traditional sense, to reinforce and train students with out learning the traditional forms. And before you condemn me for not using the forms, I like the point out, that each sifu I have seen deviates or changes the forms slightly. Take the sil lim toa I've seen it done six or seven different ways each being different and form and in movements.
So again we come down to it, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

[Ryu]

Bruce's mother was half German, not Bruce himself.
He did have German in him though, but 50% German he was not.

Ryu

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by planetwc


Bruce was indeed half German on his mother's side.

Some who were jealous of Bruce used that as a reason politically within the Wing Chun school of Ip Man to force him out of Ip's main school. That said, it is more likely that Bruce ended his training with Ip Man and Wong Shun Leung simply because he emigrated to the US. His only Wing Chun contact in the US was with Fook Yeung a "Red Boat" stylist in the pacific northwest (and hence a completely different style of Wing Chun).

That said, Bruce was obviously a favorite young student of Ip Man just as William Cheung was. Therefore claims of Ip Man not "liking" Bruce are specious.

Additionally, Ip Man taught guys like Rolf Clausnitzer who (as you can tell) was obviously German. Rolf is a Wing Chun teacher under the Wong Shun Leung lineage. Wong you may remember was one of Bruce's principal teachers (in addition to Ip Man).

The bottom line is Bruce trained very hard and had good cardio by the time he went back to HK. This meant he was in better shape and was more rigorous about his training than the average student. It would give him the advantage against his lazy sidai and sihings. Mix in some youthfull arrogance along with Wing Chun aggressiveness and you will make "political" enemies.

It IS said (By Ip Man's son Ip Chun) that at one point late on Bruce went to Ip Man and offered to pay him a large amount of money or to pay for an apartment for him, if he Ip Man, would let Bruce film him doing the wooden dummy. Ip Man declined the offer. There was something about how it was presented that apparently rubbed Ip Man the wrong way, as he was known for taking sums of money for just these kinds of things.

In fact, there IS footage of Ip Man doing all the sets and the dummy. I have the footage of the first 2 sets and the dummy.
Apparently Leung Ting has the Bil Jee and perhaps the weapons footage, which it is rumored was done for some high ranking police students. It was filmed very close to his death well beyond his peak of skill or endurance. He died very shortly afterwards. So what we see on the video is a shadow of what he really was.

It is quite poignant to see Ip Man pause to rest on the jong to catch his breath and try to remember the next set of movements.
Quite sad.

Ummm...half german on his mother's side would make Bruce 1/4 German, not 1/2 German. Small quibble I know. Anyway there were other WC men such as Hawkins Cheung who knew the COMPLETE system and had to modify what they where doing when facing opponents much bigger than themselves. That's nothing against WC, it's just a fact of life that when you always train with people your own size or smaller you half to make adjustments when facing much larger opponents. Hawkins Cheung (with the help of Ip Man) was able to do this within WC. Bruce had to go outside WC to do this. Oh, and I'd love to see the Ip Man footage.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[curtis]

Hay David ARE YOU STILL OUT THERE!!!!! YA you too!

There's nothing wrong with modifying something. (My opinion) it is done all of the time. In martial art's as well is in life in general. Necessity is the mother of all invention! There is in need, or problem that needs to be fixed, WE must fixed it!
People throughout the generations have found, that sometimes they must modify or change from the old ways of doing things, or become extinct.
Come on! Do you really believe that the martial art that you do today is the same art, your ancestors used?
People change, cultures change.

CHANGE is the only thing that is constant in this world.

So why put down someone who changes something for the better?
Bruce Lee had a problem with larger Americans when he first came to the states. So he had to change (adapt to his environment.)
Instead of saying "HOW COULD YOU!" Shouldn't you be asking WHY,Are you doing this? and HOW, Does it work?
I believe that Bruce Lee was very subtle about how and what he change (not to mention secretive) in his methodology. (Why else you believe there'd be such controversy over what he did.)
I believe one of the things he would have had to change, was his method of traping. He had to (as I see it) off balance his opponent, ( or take away their base.) As quickly as possible. So that they (the Americans he encountered.) could not use their greater size and strength against him.

OK THERES MY STATEMENT now the the QUESTION.

I do not have the answers. Only a lot of questions. Although I do believe it had to do with his sense of touch, and sensitivity, to incoming energy.
So again , I ask how do you see it? And how DO you believe he applied it?
Sincerely C.A.G.
"By my lying eyes" I didn't see that one COMEING! cag.

[TargetAlex]

As Curtis said, change is the one constant in life.

I see change as having two categories, 'macrochange' and 'microchange'.

'Macrochange' would be those changes where we look beyond the tools we have already acquired in order to find a solution to a problem that we cannot seem to solve with those tools. This would be along the lines of what Bruce chose to do when confronted with 'larger American' adversaries; he looked to other arts in order to examine other tools that might help to solve a particular problem. ( He also 'tweaked' those new tools so that they would work from the fighting stance he liked.) Hawkins Cheung seems to have looked inside the system to adapt his Wing Chun to find solutions. Niether way should be criticized (in my opinion), as they both are serving to 'find the cause of ignorence.' If Bruce had not labelled his initial adaptations 'Jun Fan Gung Fu' and his later adaptations 'Jeet Kune Do', we would be referring to what he did as Wing Chun, or modified Wing Chun. Anyone who is properly being trained in JKD knows how much of the structure of Wing Chun still carries into JKD, even though the foot positions (for example) have been modified. Every martial art gets modified as it evolves from generation to generation, instructor to instructor- it cannot be helped. Bruce's changes may seem more drmatic, or more drastic, but each instructor puts his personality into the techniques he is teaching, subconciously or not. Although the essentials are there, (a side kick is a side kick), the timing, delivery method, or 'expression' of that side kick has evolved (we hope for the better.)

'Microchange' is what we do on the fly. For example, when sparring an opponent who immediately demonstrates an ability to slip well, you will change your tactics, perhaps using some form of draw to open a new line for your attack. We make these kinds of 'microchanges' quickly, and often subconciously, in order to gain the advantage in an altercation. If you try something, and it doesn't work, you had better try something different quickly, or you're done!

-Alex

[planetwc]

Originally posted by curtis
Hay David ARE YOU STILL OUT THERE!!!!! YA you too!

There's nothing wrong with modifying something. (My opinion) it is done all of the time. In martial art's as well is in life in general. Necessity is the mother of all invention! There is in need, or problem that needs to be fixed, WE must fixed it!
People throughout the generations have found, that sometimes they must modify or change from the old ways of doing things, or become extinct.
Come on! Do you really believe that the martial art that you do today is the same art, your ancestors used?
People change, cultures change.

CHANGE is the only thing that is constant in this world.

So why put down someone who changes something for the better?
Bruce Lee had a problem with larger Americans when he first came to the states. So he had to change (adapt to his environment.)
Instead of saying "HOW COULD YOU!" Shouldn't you be asking WHY,Are you doing this? and HOW, Does it work?
I believe that Bruce Lee was very subtle about how and what he change (not to mention secretive) in his methodology. (Why else you believe there'd be such controversy over what he did.)
I believe one of the things he would have had to change, was his method of traping. He had to (as I see it) off balance his opponent, ( or take away their base.) As quickly as possible. So that they (the Americans he encountered.) could not use their greater size and strength against him.

OK THERES MY STATEMENT now the the QUESTION.

I do not have the answers. Only a lot of questions. Although I do believe it had to do with his sense of touch, and sensitivity, to incoming energy.
So again , I ask how do you see it? And how DO you believe he applied it?
Sincerely C.A.G.
"By my lying eyes" I didn't see that one COMEING! cag.

Which David?

Anyway...
One of my Wing Chun teachers grew up with Bruce and is actually probably smaller than Bruce was. That said, he can control much larger beefy guys with ease. I have 100 pounds on this teacher and he can use me and other > 6' guys like a broom.

When Bruce started teaching in Seattle he was reputed to be able to control the larger Jesse Glover, James DeMile, and the other jumbo sized Americans with ease.

I would expect that to come from his skill level in Wing Chun at the time compared to untrained hands with no concept of the centerline and sensitivity. There came a point however, where Bruce experienced deminished return once his students got the concepts he was using. Glover and Demile both note that Bruce started withholding techniques down in LA (not sure about Oakland) as he said "Why teach someone to beat me?".

That says that yes, Bruce reached the limits of the amount of training he had in Wing Chun. It does not speak to the limits of Wing Chun itself.

At what point does one really have the knowledge or even the skill to modify something? 6 months? 1 year? 5? 20? 30?

How deeply does one understand AND how deeply does one have the skill level of the art in question?

So if Jeet Kune or stopping fist was about shutting down someone because you were afraid of their size, or unable to engage them close range and dominate them there, could it be that there was more that needed to be learned, until one "maxes out"?

In the end, of course there is going to be a scaling limit for a small guy against a large SKILLED guy. It is why there are weight classes in most events right? You don't see flyweights fighting heavyweights in Boxing, it is just a mismatch.

I certainly don't begrudge Bruce doing what he did for himself. It worked for him. For the others out there doing change for change sake, I ask: How many studied with the leading master and fighters of their base art and for how long did they study prior to "changing" things?

How many JKD guys had the base such as it was in Bruce's case from training with Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung and William Cheung?
How deep are their wells of skill and knowledge?

[planetwc]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jmdrake
[B]

Ummm...half german on his mother's side would make Bruce 1/4 German, not 1/2 German. Small quibble I know. Anyway there were other WC men such as Hawkins Cheung who knew the COMPLETE system and had to modify what they where doing when facing opponents much bigger than themselves. That's nothing against WC, it's just a fact of life that when you always train with people your own size or smaller you half to make adjustments when facing much larger opponents. Hawkins Cheung (with the help of Ip Man) was able to do this within WC. Bruce had to go outside WC to do this.

Did Hawkins have the COMPLETE system and have it mastered when he first arrived in the US and started studying Goju? According to Hawkins he went back to Ip Man 4 times, though most of that was described as discussions over lunch or dinner. If he says he did, then fine, I will not speak ill of him on this forum.

I would tend to think that at the time, Hawkins had not completed or perhaps had the skill level that he does now or even 15 years ago.

Being shown the 3 sets, dummy and weapons is one thing. Mastery is another. Does Hawkins say he had completed and MASTERED Wing Chun at the time he was in the US? Was he at the peak of skill in Wing Chun, found it lacking and invested in Goju Ryu and Yang Taiji?