Chinese MA + Western Sport Fencing

[Ky-Fi]

Braden, your take on the foil is interesting. I've mostly done foil since January, but the last class we got to try out epee and saber--no bouting, just some drills. And, the instructor explained a lot about the differences in bouts with the different weapons. I had initially assumed I would gravitate more towards epee or saber, and while I still will give them a chance, I think I may lean more towards foil. As I understand it, there seems to be more blade exchanges and parry/riposting stuff in foil, which I find the most fun. Also, while you could argue that having more targets in epee and saber is more realistic, I suppose you could also argue that being required to hit the body in foil means that you're focusing on more realistically lethal techniques.........at least that's my take as a beginner.

[ddh]

I read an interesting book fairly recently titled "The Fencing
Master." The story, an interesting one, goes into the
mind of the fencer and the various schools during the 1800s.
I highly recommend it to fencers from any tradition.

[David Jamieson]

Some of you will really like this. It's been floating around for a few years now (roughly 400 or so hahahaha)

check it out, definitely an interesting read.

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

peace

[GeneChing]

XB: Just 'cause you started it, doesn't mean it's your thread. That's not the way a forum works. But I totally agree with you that we should resist the temptation to get into vs. arguments - it's not the art, it's the man.
I'm certified as a Provost, or prevost d' armes. I actually have two diplomas, one under the United States Fencing Coaches Assn. and another from the Army ROTC. The USFCA is recognized by the Federation Internationale D'Escrime, fencing's international governing body. There are three teaching degrees: Instructor (give beginning lesson in one weapon) Prevost (give a beginning lesson in one weapon and and advanced in one weapon) and Master (maestro - advacned lessons in all three.) A verbal, written and demonstrative examination is required with a board of 3 masters, plus a thesis. I specialized in epee and did my thesis on the Book of Five Rings applied to Western Fencing. I was trained in both the French and Italian schools.

KF: As for the old handle debate, use what makes you win the most. Don't be attached to a traditional grip or a modern grip. Be practical. Actually the Italian grip is the most traditional, but the french still dominates. I prefered a Belgium or German myself. It's all personal preference.

KL: Stop following me

[joedoe]

Gotta say I am enjoying fencing more and more each time I go to class. Fenced a guy who I beat, then found out later that he was fighting wrong-handed to rest his injured hand. Very humbling .

Gene - you probably told us before, but how long have you been fencing?

[dre]

The judges in my area don't really interpret the rules very strickty, I even had someone trying to hold me in one tournament. Becides it used to be that all you get for cora cora in epee was a warning.

[joedoe]

Well, I don't compete, I am just doing training bouts right now and the refs are the senior students (or the Maestro) so the judging can be a little off sometimes. Ultimately I take the attitude that I am the newbie and I know nothing about refereeing.

Someone trying to hold onto you seems a bit much though .

BTW in foil fencing, what are the rules surrounding contact with the ground e.g. are you allowed to put your free hand on the ground during an attack? What about if your slip/fall over?

[dre]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GeneChing
XB: Just 'cause you started it, doesn't mean it's your thread. That's not the way a forum works. But I totally agree with you that we should resist the temptation to get into vs. arguments - it's not the art, it's the man.

Aye it is. I would be a very poor judge of what is better or worse since my fencing has years on my KF.

. There are three teaching degrees: Instructor (give beginning lesson in one weapon) Prevost (give a beginning lesson in one weapon and and advanced in one weapon) and Master (maestro - advacned lessons in all three.) A verbal, written and demonstrative examination is required with a board of 3 masters, plus a thesis. I specialized in epee and did my thesis on the Book of Five Rings applied to Western Fencing. I was trained in both the French and Italian schools.

I'm thinking of applying to be an instructor , could you please tell me what the test is like? I don't think I want to teach right now, but it's a nice thing to have under my proverbial "belt". BTW, I'm a French Fencer, with a littel Hungarian for flavor.

"KF: As for the old handle debate, use what makes you win the most. Don't be attached to a traditional grip or a modern grip. Be practical. Actually the Italian grip is the most traditional, but the french still dominates. I prefered a Belgium or German myself. It's all personal preference. "

I've always had a lot of trouble with the Belgian and German, they always make my hand "stick" , so I'm one of the very few who uses the French. Although I do know a guy who uses the old handlebar Italian.

[Thomas Chen]

To Xebsball:

Latest news release: HongKong-based Golden Harvest Film Studios has just announced a latest martial arts film, to be directed by Academy Award-winning director, Lee Ang. It is titled, " the Way of the Rapier Fist". The story is about a Brazilian martial artist, Xebsball aka Genital Grinder II, who had mastered the Tao of Jeet Kune Do and that of Western fencing, who then combines them both to form the Way of the Rapier Fist. The final climax in the movie would be that Xebsball would go level by level up a Chinese pagoda, not unlike " The Game of Death", and uses his rapier fists to go against top martial artists at every level. Potential villains being considered would include Samo Hung, Jacky Chan, Jet Li, a completely digital and computer-generated Bruce Lee, and Michael Jordan, whom Xebsball will fight at the top level of the pagoda. Expect lots of slow motion computer enhanced moves like that in the Matrix, and a ridiculous storyline that includes Xebsball learning to walk on water without sinking..... The film is expected to premiere in U.S. theatres in summer 2003. Stay tuned.






Thomas Chen

[SwaiingDragon]

I had the pleasure of fencing for over a decade- although saber is my preffered weapon- foil gives you excellent point control and epee helps ones focus and patience-

I've also tried a variety of martial arts- kendo, kumdo, arnis, kali, jiu-jitsu, judo, hapkido, tae kwon do, sambo, -just to try- but i've been practicing kung fu for about 7 years-

I've placed 1st or 2nd in about 12 weapon sparring events at kung fu tournaments- and to be honest - i'm not that good at either fencing or kung fu- it's my hobby (that i take seriously)-

I found that some current kung fu weapon practioners are more theory than application- if you win a forms division it doesnt mean that you will automatically win an actual combat situation.

how does a boxer handle a grappler? a kicker handle a boxer?

the way to find out is to try.....and western fencing is a safe way to experience weapon conact.

think about trying to hit a golf ball or baseball by only practicing you swing not actually ever hitting the ball!!

[GeneChing]

jd: I started fencing in high school under Maestro Pitner and was competing as on the junior level. I competed NCAA in college under Maestro Dasaro and was captian of the epee squad. I was trained as a Provost under Maestro Gaugler then too. I gave up fencing in the mid 90's. He ran the only certification program in the USA that was univeristy based, but I'm not sure if he still is recognized by the USFCA. I was training towards my Maestro, but then blew my elbow pretty badly, and then my kungfu overwhelmed my fencing.

There is no bodily contact allowed in fencing and you cannot use your back hand. A fall ends the action. I haven't kept up with the rules, but last I remember you could touch the ground with your free hand in a passato soto (a ducking stop thrust) - this might have changed. Remember fencing is based on duelling, not street combat, so just like boxing doesn't allow kicking, fencing has it's restrictions. Same as Kendo vs. Kenjitsu.

dre: The instructors's exam is pretty light, an oral, a written and a demo. You can contact the USFCA for more info - the hardest part is assembling 3 masters to sit on your board. You need to know three masters.

I used the french occasionally in Epee since it was legal to grab it by the pommel in that weapon and it would give me an extra 3 inches. I'm 5'8" so kinda short for epee and L'd take any more reach I could get. I'd use this only against a fencer who had weak beats. Gaugler was a stickler for the Italian grip - it had it's usefulness but I never competed with it. I do think that it gives you a better sense of what if must have been like back in the day. I liked the heavy pistol grips because they were like a big push dagger and I could just punch through sometimes. Maybe that was a little shaolin bleeding into my fencing. That straight lunging punch is always dependable.

[Xebsball]

Thomas
Dont tell Tae Li, but do i get to elbow Jet in the face?


I have come up with a final asnwer, basicly the idea is that i must first aquire "minimal sparringly proficiency" in XY before doing any fencing.

[dre]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GeneChing
There is no bodily contact allowed in fencing and you cannot use your back hand.

They are seriusly moving towards more contact and more protective equipment. Cora cora is quite normal here in NYC , and it usually goes without any comment.

A fall ends the action. I haven't kept up with the rules, but last I remember you could touch the ground with your free hand in a passato soto (a ducking stop thrust) - this might have changed.

It hasn't you can't use the other hand for anything. You can't block target.

dre: The instructors's exam is pretty light, an oral, a written and a demo. You can contact the USFCA for more info - the hardest part is assembling 3 masters to sit on your board. You need to know three masters.

Well, I know at least one, maybe I can scare up more.

I used the french occasionally in Epee since it was legal to grab it by the pommel in that weapon and it would give me an extra 3 inches.

LOL! I know someone who does EXACTLY this, and it's why he uses a french too.

I liked the heavy pistol grips because they were like a big push dagger and I could just punch through sometimes. Maybe that was a little shaolin bleeding into my fencing. That straight lunging punch is always dependable.

Naa, it's my fencing that dominates everything else, I migth as well train Savate. Lol, I do the whole fencing footwork thing, even in KF, line 'em up - drill 'em.

[GeneChing]

While we're on the topic, let me recommend my favortie fencing book - On Fencing by Aldo Nadi - you'll find it available here - http://www.amfence.com/html/books_fencing.html . Nadi was one the the greatest fencers of last century and his description of fighting an actual duel is a must read for every swordsman.

dre: Actually my understanding was that they were moving away from body contact due to injuries. True, the equipment has greatly improved, but so have the restrictions. You got to remember, I was trained under the old AFLA rules, not USFA, so my take on this comes from when points were scored against (as they should be) not for.

If you fencing someone who grasps the epee by the pommel, just beat the hell out of his blade and he'll tire. Just be cautious, since if he has good blade evasions (and someone using this strategy usually does) he'll draw out that big beat just to open you for a wrist pick.

I always wanted to try Savate, especially since I worked shaolin cane a lot, but never found a teacher.

And I used a lot of the fencing drills too, not unlike Bruce Lee. There's a big flaw in Lee's technique because of this and I've toyed with writing a piece to address this, but it takes so long to set up the fundamental understanding of fencing time. Still, it's great reaction training and distance work. A lot of fencing footwork and the whole notion of feinting, second intention and right of way, are all great for sparring theory and training.

[chyisan]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
why do people make so mant presumptions here? It is not an age old Chinese tale of greatness, it happen in New York during the Seventies, and my teacher was standing there watching it amongst the other 200 spectators present. Its even on video too.

Where can I get a copy of this video?