the concept of covering

[mun hung]

There are many ways to explain the principle of covering. aelward's explanation is a good one. This is just another example.

Reaction is always slower than action. When your opponent attacks - you are only reacting to his action. Why react when you can predict, anticipate and then "cover" the entire area? More time? It's actually less time. Covering can also be an open invitation to attack an area that you choose. Open the gate - close the gate. Like setting a trap. Just like in chi sau. This is covering.

With the principle of covering you are always one step ahead of your opponent instead of one step behind.

"Covering" is like opening up an umbrella and knowing that you'll be protected from the rain instead of trying to anticipate and chase every raindrop.

SiFu Duncan Leung will be in our kwoon in NYC next week for a seminar. If anyone is interested - you can contact me.

[yuanfen]

Wing Chun is indeed a diverse and interesting world.
OTOH...one could take the offensive rather than just cover.
If not there is still from Sun Tzu to wc kuen kuit-the principle- you start first, I get there earlier.

[vingtsunstudent]

mthandz
thanx for your comments & i had written a lengthy response but we are having a storm & due to lightning i lost it.
i will say as there is odviously very much a huge difference in peoples ideas on combat & the way wing chun should be used.
mun hung post only further loses me with regards to this subject but for him & me to disagree is nothing new & i think we both know that this is only because of our different interpretations, as always to each there own.
as wingman said, if you are in centre then you are already in a commanding position & your opponent is already left with going to the outside, which is naturally the longest path.
'Reaction is always slower than action'
with the example given(ie you throw a punch), i would really expect you to be in range and by you throwing the punch you are the one taking action, he is the one that has to react & try to counter, by which stage you should already be in control(this is providing you are at a level to UNDERSTAND & APPLY your wing chun hands coupled with your footwork correctly)
i personally believe that from the ideas you guys have given that there is still to many wasted movements goin' on, but if it works for you then more power to ya.
let me finish with this
'With the principle of covering you are always one step ahead of your opponent instead of one step behind.'
i throw a punch, he side steps, to which i cover as he has gone to my blind side.........whoops......he now throws a left hook to the body or head on the otherside as i have left them open whilst covering my right...........whoops...........not the otherside again.
do you understand that the minute you cover, YOU ARE CHASING HANDS & one step behind not infront.
and always remember this is an aggressive art, so don't be scared
vts

[Wingman]

if you are in centre then you are already in a commanding position & your opponent is already left with going to the outside, which is naturally the longest path.

...and may I add, if you occupy the centerline, you always have the option to attack because your attack is more direct. Thus as Sun Tzu said, "we must manage, though starting after
the enemy, to arrive before him".

[S.Teebas]

do you understand that the minute you cover, YOU ARE CHASING HANDS & one step behind not infront.

Very good point VTS!!

If you opponent knows that you are chasing, guess what he'll do? ...He's going to lead you right into a trap!! (i dont mean 'trapping' but a strike etc....) And you get SMASHED!!!!

[mun hung]

Wrong. - Covering is the complete OPPOSITE of chasing hands.

Wingman compared to chess. Covering is just part of the gambit.

Understanding thru this medium is the real problem.

I encourage you to pick up SiFu Duncan Leung's first video for a better idea.

p.s. -
yuanfen - covering is not only for defense. It's principles are also used offensively - just not used in the examples presented.

[mthandz]

...one could take the offensive rather than just cover.
What does going on teh offensive have to do with wing chun thoery and principal? afterall anyone can do that witout learning

If not there is still from Sun Tzu to wc kuen kuit-the principle- you start first, I get there earlier.
How can this apply to churn-gings situtatition where the atacker is now on your blindside? Can it be done? plz explain. thanks ina dvance!

Hopfully on same topic.how is coverage used in larp sau? dose anybody cover in thatkind context

mthandz

[yuanfen]

mun hung- its at a point for me to agree to diasgree The covering idea lacks sufficient precision for me anyway. You are welcome to doing it your way.

mthandz-if the attacker is on your so called blind side- you have made a mistake already- but if you are skilled(good chum kiu) you recover the line and face him/her and attack--you dont just stand there.

[fa_jing]

A few years ago, I had 6 months of experience in another lineage (Chueng). This instructor taught me the concept of "cover the gates", the way he explained it, was similar to what Mun Hung says. However, we didn't go into detail as to what is covered when. The way I understood it, was that your block had to cover an entire gate, so that an incoming strike didn't get past the block. For instance, he taught me to practice the lop sao so that my hand passed by my opposite ear, before sweeping across and downward to catch an incoming punch. If I was lop - ing with my right hand, then my left upper gate was completely covered by this motion.

My current sifu emphasizes more the tight circles, and minimal motion. I think with something like a lop sao, if you're in contact with your opponents arm to begin with, you want a tight motion, but if the strike is coming at a distance, then you need to cover an entire area to make sure you make contact with the incoming strike. Of course, now I am taught to tan sao before trying to lop someone's punch out of thin air.

Still, the same may be true of Tan sao, gan sao, and bon sao, in that we typically practice the block to sweep across an area, they aren't static blocks because it's too hard to make a pinpoint contact with the incoming strike, and remain static at the same time. That may be a reason we practice all the stance shifting, too.

I see the concept of covering illustrated in our version of Chum Kil, in the section with the lan sao + kick, three advancing bon saos, uppercut punch etc. To preform the 3 bon sao + wu sao, we first have our hands low, crossed, and palms up, then lift our arms while rotating our wrists, to the bon sao + wu sao postion. Yip man guys know what I'm talking about. The block in this instance, seems to cover the side middle gate, all the way up to the upper gate. I haven't discussed the reasons behind this exaggerated motion with my instructor, but it seems to me like it may have to do with this covering concept.

-FJ

[hunt1]

It seems that some are making covering complicated.To really understand covering and how it works you must either have real fighting experience or take the time to play with it.

You can not block in a fight it is too slow and puts you behind your opponent.The most basic of all WC motions ,tan da,is a cover and punch.Unless you are doing a double attack,double punch etc, one hand is always covering or should be.

[Sabu]

Originally posted by aelward
Covering also eliminates guesswork, which is the entire point. Guessing is too risky, as is relying on visual reflexes.

Guesswork??? What is tan sau, lap sau, pak sau, jut sau, bong sau, etc?

[vingtsunstudent]

honestly i think i could go on for pages to try & describe why you ARE chasing hands but would it change anything------NO.
i respectfuly have to disagree with you and hope that i never have to look upon my ving tsun in that light.
as always though if it works for you then it can't be all that bad.........again i am sorry but i think you are just missing something in your wing chun that will take you to the next level.
vts

[CanadianBadAss]

Would "covering" in our lingeage be the circle we create when doing chi sau or rolling hands, and not allowing anyone to brake it?

[aelward]

Probably a lot of you who are writing off covering probably use it without realizing it. If you intercept a jab with a punch over the top or along the inside gate, you are covering. If you use pak sao to clear an obstacle as your other hand strikes at the centerline, you are covering. If you ever use any of the motions from the tan-sao part of the third form, you are probably covering. If you have ever lifted your bong sao from a low position to a high position, or across your center in a lower position, you are covering. The idea is embedded with the movements of the forms, even if you don't realize it. Now whether you actively train with the concept in mind, that is another story.


quote:
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if you are in centre then you are already in a commanding position & your opponent is already left with going to the outside, which is naturally the longest path.
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... but to assume that just because you take the shortest path means that the person taking the longest path is not going to hit you is a risky proposition. So what if your punch reaches first? If you don't significantly unbalance your opponent (and sometimes, even if you do), he can still wallop you, regardless of who hits first. Like I said before, hitting is easy, not getting hit is the hard part. I've seen this time and time again, where someone tries to charge up the center, landing several hits, and in the end gets nailed by a good hook, even though their opponent was being pushed backwards. Covering just takes the idea of "safety first" so that you are not just exchanging hits.


vingtsunstudent writes:
> i throw a punch, he side steps, to which i cover as he has gone
> to my blind side.........whoops......he now throws a left hook to
> the body or head on the otherside as i have left them open
> whilst covering my right...........whoops...........not the otherside
> again.

Saying that I am understanding your situation well, here's what you can do, that is both offensive and covering: as the person moves to my blind side (I'm assuming it is my right), I step toward him with a right gang sao and a left punch into his center. My gang sao picks up everything heading toward my center from my shoulder to my waist, my left punch covers the my left (whether it is upper or middle gate depends on the height of my opponent). And since he is on my right, his body won't be in a position to put enough torgue into his right hook to cause damge, even if he gets past my left punch.



Now, for a personal story: before, when I sparred with karate, TKD, and other kung fu folks, it was always very easy to close the distance and either control hands or just dominate the centerline. But when I tried this against boxers/kickboxers, it was a completely different story. I was at a loss for why I was still getting hit, even though my attacks were going along the shorter path. It was from joining in a few of SiFu Leung's classes that I picked up on covering; and afterwards, I got hit a lot less when sparring against boxer/kickboxers; I also realized that my own sifu had already incorporated a lot of it into our chi sao practice. It also occurs to me that as one of the 50s WC fighters, maybe SiFu Leung has some real practical experience that we could learn from?

I highly recommend that all of you who advocate charging up the center to spar against a couple of boxers, at full contact, and see if that strategy works. If it does, all the more power to you. If not, then maybe you might give covering a little thought.

[Wingman]

aelward,

Interesting story about sparring with a boxer. I have also encountered a similar situation with a boxer. He usually uses hooks against me. My answer to his hooks are centerline punches since it travels a shorter distance than his hooks. Although I am able to hit him, sometimes he can also hit me with his hooks which lands on my ear or behind my ear. Lucky for me, so far he has not been able to land a good one on my jaw. He said that I lacked timing and suggested that I try jumping rope to improve my timing. Jumping rope improved my timing and I am not getting hit as often.

You mentioned that "covering" can be applied in this situation. Can you please elaborate. Maybe I can try your idea of "covering" the next time I meet my boxer friend.

Thanks in advance...