Article on JKD

[Sensei Kunz]

First thing sir; I think you have been smoking a little to much of that grass that grows in your front yard. It is obvious that your only knowledge of JKD is heresay from others who never even understood or studied it.

JKD has a strong base of foundation that must be adhered to; inwhich I don't have the time to write 40 pages to explain just some of the basic concepts. To just slightly mention a few: The stance, footwork, centerline theory, X, five ways of attack, flowing, hammer principle, power delivery, boxing techniques, etc....................... If the main core or concepts (foundation) are not followed then it is not JKD! It would be the same of me asking you to explain your art when I have ignorance to deal with in knowing what you are talking. Nothing personal, just know a little about something as fact before your tongue splits in two?

Wing Chung is a small part of what JKD is about, by the way. It was the start of his development into trapping and grappling. (immobilization)

Everyone in the arts has to start somewhere. be it any style, form or way. There is no such thing as a superior art, only a superior practioner!!!!

Sensei Kunz

[red5angel]

I know I am coming into this thread waaaaaay late but I just read the article and Rogue was kind enough to point me in the right direction.

Mr. Kunz, you seem like a nice guy, and you also seem confident in your beliefs. I read your article and while I also agree with the other guys that it is mostly rehashed, we are also oldtimers on the forum here and have been in martial arts a few years. Others who are new to the arts or JKD may find it interesting.

Now, I should warn you I am wing chun practitioner, but dont have the seeming enmity for JKD that most WC people have. Arts spring from other arts and that is the way it has always been. I am however a classical man for many reasons. Most of which have been pointed out by several of the other guys who have already talked to you on this thread.

My only real issue is that all of your problems with the 'classical mess' sound more like training issues then anything else. If you havent been taught that forms arent application then you are training wrong. I fyou cant explore what you are sutdying to figure out why something does or does not work, then you are not training correctly. You see what I am saying? If you get far enough in an art, I believe you begin to make it your own, but you have to have a very deep understanding of that art, one Bruce Lee did not have, but was working on when he died. It seems people have taken his notes on combat and turned them into a way to fight, when I think like you said, it is the concepts that are the important things. Of course ultimately we cant get into what he thought becaus ehe is not capable of confirming our ideas and so it is all speculation.
What most JKD guys preach, is what I think is a natural progression already built into the martial arts, its only a few that really get it though. You train, for a long time to understand what it is you are doing, and then when you have finally understood it, you empty your cup and begin to explore it even deeper.
Its unfortunate that Bruce Lee took the word Art in the martial arts too much to heart. It is still about fighting and you dont get that skill by jumping around and making up your own things. Many arts have been developed and refined over centuries, and with good reason, most men cannot do it in a lifetime.

[Sensei Kunz]

Thank you for your post!

In regards to the "classical mess" mentioned, I am referring to the majority of dojos that have been commercialized and are no longer teaching true self-defense, rather, they have turned it into a dancing art. I have seen this with my own eyes, especially from the tournament competitions recently. Many turn out for the kata competition and the few fighters that remain, in my opinion, are a joke. They couldn't defend themselves if their life depended on it, let alone, in the streets.

On the "fixed forms", I have been taught many of them in my traditional styles and never found them reliable or useful. This is just my personal opinion, mind you! I am a true believer however in free forms. Due to street fight situations, they are ever changing and not fixed. Too many arts train their students that a fight will happen this way and you must do this. This is far from the truth!

I know the article was short and there was much more I wanted to elaborate, however, some things I could not get in. In the furture, I will be addressing one title rather than many in such short space. LOL!

I know that you cannot dispute the above statments for they are fact.

Kindest Regards,


Sensei Kunz

[red5angel]

Thanks for replying, I think mainly you just have to be careful about over generalizations as some of us guys not stuck in the classical mess but studying classical kung fu wont get offended
I dont mind reading articles about any sort of kung fu and dont have any particular problem with JKD, or MMA type stuff in general, just not my path.

As for forms, I just see them as being a useful training tool. You are right they cannot be applied directly to the street, but they teach your body unity, help you to assume positions that are often painful at first and awkward but help you to get past those hurtles as well. They can act as a catalog of a styles techniques, and can be like you said, a great meditation tool.

I do however agree with you on how schools teach now adays. There are many people out there teaching who just shouldnt be. In wing chun I can see that everywhere I go. I study Wing chun from a guy who has an incredible amount of understanding on how the wing chun things works. After seeing it you can look at the other stuff out there, most o fit anyway, and know that it is watered down and weak.
I like the idea of padless tourneys, unfortunately for now the legal sensitivties here in the US do not permit some people to do them, others treat it as more of a game, something to get you students actvely involved in but not really concentrating on the substance of the martial conflict. I also do not like the turning towards the kata and form competitions. It seems we are turning more to the Art and turning away from the martial.

[curtis]

Sensei Kunz and Red5angle
I do not wish to be rude, both of you bring up some very good points. Although I believe you're both wrong as far as the forms go .
Why pretend to do something? Why not develop drills to work on individual elements that you choose to look at? Granted forms may be useful. But they take great time to learn, time that could be better spent.
I believe we should learn ,like a child does.
Children learn through play ((it has to be fun!)) They learn through their basic senses (site, touch. Ect...) Where in a form do you get the tactile response necessary to trigger your actions? As well as immediate feedback? (After all how can you tell just by watching if all of the angles are correct in whatever technique featured in the form.) I believe it is much easier, as well as quicker to work on drills instead of using your imagination.

On meditation, the mind takes control. Sort of .?!
I believe there is a conscious and subconscious mind.
In meditation the purpose is to connect the two. For when the two halves of your mind are working in conjunction, greater speed, in learning and behavior modification can be performed much quicker and easier, Then the traditional ways are doing things.

I believe in direct meditation. (Positive suggestion, goal oriented positive feedback) instead of indirect meditation .

There's nothing wrong with the older ideas on how to do things.

MY goal is not to put down one art (or the ways you learn), but ONLY to explain the differences and WHY, I do things differently.

"In a pinch" I want to learn the most efficient way I can. Time is a valued commodity, one that I cannot afford to waste.
Now I can only talk for myself. Although I believe that Bruce Lee felt something a kin, to what I just explained.
You do what you wish. And I will do what I do. And this is WHY!!! ( I also believe he was more dramatic in his explanations, and did not care if he offended anyone, who may have mis-understood what he said. )

I could be completely wrong. But I do not believe SO. The way I have been taught to train is the CORRECT ONE FOR ME.
I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from. Sometimes a different point of view, can help you focus on the matter at hand.
Have a good night. C.A.G.

[brothernumber9]

forms can be, and in some systems, are drills.

if time is one's concern then perhaps focusing on only hands on drills with the aspects of previous posts may be better for quicker development. Maybe not. an argument to the later could be based on how many drills you could come up with, even in your whole life time, as opposed to how many drills you can make out of sections of forms, and drills that are already present in any Traditional chinese martial arts school that have been thought up, experienced and developed over hundreds of years? One had better be really creative to do that.

The argument of JKD vs Classical MA ( I substitute with Traditional chinese martial arts ) is an argument against itself. Traditional styles are not completely set in their ways, they evolve and change, similar to some pyramids I suppose, that were built on top of foundation after foundation. I may elicite negative response as I am no expert on anything about Bruce Lee or JKD, but pretty much everything that people interperet or quote from Bruce Lee's philosophies already exist in classical arts.

my point is that it is pointless to try to pit JKD vs Classical arts unless you pick out a specific art, at least then succinct examples and comparisons can be drawn. As for enlightening classical stylists with JKD theories or philosophies, try presenting any NEW theories or philosophies to someone who really knows an art such as choy lay fut, hung ga, Southern praying mantis, if the practitioner has learned the concepts, theories, philosophies, poetries, and applications, then one would find it extremely difficult if possible at all.

[red5angel]

Curtis - I understand where you are coming from but not only do you do forms but you should also be doing drills as well. The forms and the drills do different thinks but work in synergie to develope skill. Like I said, for some drills and some arts, forms not only catalogue techniques but they help physical developement that is optimal for some arts, help to re-adjust you posture to be correct for your art, help to mold your body into what your art embodies.
Do you see what I am saying? The drills help you to form tactile response or sensitivity and reflex, while the forms mold your body and allow you to get "to know" your style.

[curtis]

HELLO red5angel, and brothernumber9

I believe the classical mess analogy drives from many areas in THE traditional ways of doing things, like forms. (Please hear me out before you jump to rash decisions, on what I talk about.)

I do not know what Bruce Lee thought. All I can tell you is what I was taught, as well as my interpretations of what I have learned.

In the Oriental ways of thinking. To give someone a knife is foolish, for they will probably stab you in the back.

SO many martial art's are very secretive. For just that reason, others have made things very tough for its students. (too weed out the undesirable people.)
Of course these are just examples, (I am not pointing fingers at any one.) Although I believe there is much filler information given to a student that is not necessary, to perform the art they are studying. (Yes information may be valuable later, but is it necessary?) If your goal is to learn self defense, then I believe your answer will be NO, and if you're beyond self defense element your answer will probably be YES.
I believe in practicality. Self defense is first, and then comes the art.
No matter how beautiful the art is, or how effective the art CAN be, I believe you must first ask your self, how much of what I know is necessary to survive a street fight? Chances are you'll find ,you do not need to know a lot in order to survive. You just have to be good at what you know.

Fighting is dangerous, but not complicated. I believe you must first understand that. Then you can learned the art! ( Not before)

All too many people study the art in hope to learn, how to defend them selfs. I believe that is a mistake.
Again these are just my opinions. You can either take them , or leave them. It is your choice.

The thing I find funny, and why I originally wrote was. This is Jeet Kune Do page (fourm) SO why do so many people quote Bruce Lee, and then DO something that is completely opposite, of what they just stated?
AGAIN I AM NOT POINTING AT ANYONE, I just find a lot of contradictions, in what people stay and do.
"O WELL" its all up to individual interpretation.
Sincerely C.A.G.

[Sensei Kunz]

I have a question for you posters! Do you think there is a difference between general martial arts and real street fighting?

I will state my own personal belief and you guys and take it from there. (As I know you will) LOL!

I do believe that many of the arts today could not defend themself in a street fight situation. There are too many factors involved that are not being taught inside the schools. Many instructors may have made a name for themself in sparring competition, however, they have had no real street fighting experience. Sparring in the dojo and fighting in the streets are two different worlds. This is a fact!

In the street, one must have expereince from all fighting aspects including grappling and groundwork. If there are some of you that believe that a fight will end before it gets to the ground, you better wake up and smell the coffee and then slap yourself in the face.

Regarding forms/katas that are fixed, they are great for meditation and developing technique. however, do no believe that every technique will work on every individual. There must be a flow and transition from all aspects that may occurr in a combatant. Not every individual responds or reacts the same when hit.

Sparring competitions today are either 3 or 5 points and the first one that scores, the fighters are seperated and a point is awarded. There are very few individuals that go down upon one kick or hit in the real world. The best competitions are "round robins" of continuous fighting including grappling and groundwork with submissions. This is what I have found to be close to real street fighting. Oh, I almost forgot, contact with good solid hits and kicks are a must with proper protective gear.

Wishing you all the best!

Sensei Kunz
http://www.selfdefenseforyou.com

[DelicateSound]

I do believe that many of the arts today could not defend themself in a street fight situation

Blanket statement from you. Most people who learn classical arts cannot defend themselves in the street. Ones fom McDojo's learn incorrectly. i.e"When he hits with "X" you block with "Y"".

This won't just make you ineffective, it will get you killed. This IMHO is worse than no training at all, as it gets you into bad habits. You react with the wrong thing.

I know Karate Black Belts that say they would NEVER use their art on the street. They only know the "McDojo way"

However, I know some Karateka's who really have spent the time to explore their art. It's become second nature and they react instinctively, not "X"-"Y" style, but thinking on-the-fly.

IMO there are 2 layers of knowledge. The first is "Sifu says". The second is "I say". You understand your art, and it works for you.

In the street, one must have expereince from all fighting aspects including grappling and groundwork. If there are some of you that believe that a fight will end before it gets to the ground, you better wake up and smell the coffee and then slap yourself in the face.

BS. Most "streetfights" involve multiple attackers and usually weapons. NEVER go to the ground in this situation. I agree that you need to know the ground, in order not to be there, but don't make it your goal. From what I've seen, most bareknuckle fights are won by the guy who gets in the first hardest punch. Most people cannot take a shattered nose and keep fighting. They'll cover up, and turn defensive allowing themselves to be dominated by the opponant.

Regarding forms/katas that are fixed, they are great for meditation and developing technique. however, do no believe that every technique will work on every individual. There must be a flow and transition from all aspects that may occurr in a combatant. Not every individual responds or reacts the same when hit.

Which is why you have to make the art work for you. You cannot just turn up twice a week and expect to be able to defend yourself. You must take the time and effort to see what works. To see how you respond, how you cna use your skills. Like I said, "Sifu says" is merely basic knowledge. Few people transcend this.

As for katas and forms, do not dismiss them. Perfection of technique is essential. It MUST be couples with sparring obvously, but without technique it is difficult to face a combat situation. Without the correct muscle memory, and the "ingrained" mobves you will fall to pieces. I see lots of MA's swinging wildly like untrained fighters when the **** hits the fan.

The best competitions are "round robins" of continuous fighting including grappling and groundwork with submissions. This is what I have found to be close to real street fighting.

Obviously. I hate "semi-contact". That's not fighting, its ballet.

However, too many schools just throw a student into full-contact without giving him the tools to use first, They fall to pieces. Cover up and cry.

You must give a student ample time to perfect his techniques. Drills, kata etc are very important. Chi Sau is the bridge. It is one of the most important aspects in moving away from "X"-"Y" mentality.

My view on JKD is mixed, Sensei Kunz. I agree that we must consider all arts, and to use only what works for us [again, move away from "Sifu says"]

However, to say that classical forms are useless is a blanket statement that I find pretty ignorant. Bruce hardly had the experience to say that. The "mess" that Bruce talks about is present in 90% of all students yes. However, 90% of all students are crap. I've seen LOTS of bad Karate for example. I've seen good Karate very few times, and believe me, like any art, good Karate would kick ass

ANY art can be street effective if the necessary work is put in.

[curtis]

Sensei Kunz good Morning!

In the United States military you train for the worst case situation , in that way, you should be prepared for when real thing ,when IT happens.
Along the line of thought, I believe ground fighting should be learned. Just in case.
But I seriously disagree with you. And do not buy into the Gracies line of thought. (All fights end on the ground!)
As an adult my actual street fighting career is limited (there are more than I would like to admit. But not enough to brag about.)
and as a youth I was involved in lots of fights. Non-which ended up on the ground.

As far as forms GO. I am sorry! I believe they are A waste time! (Time which could be better spent learning techniques or concepts.)
I am sorry we are going to have to agreeing,to disagree on this topic.
GOOD LUCK IN YOUR TRAINING.
Sincerely yours C.A.G.

[CLG]

Hi there!
Sorry for joining in this discussion so late.
Just wanted to post a message I posted on the regular Kung Fu forum. perhaps it may be relevant to the topic at hand..? (It's been partially edited from the original post)

_________________________________________________


Some thoughts... on self-defense, traditional arts, reality fighting etc.

FWIW, I’ve trained for the better part of my life, primarily as a tool for self-discipline and fitness, at least that’s what my mother said when she first enrolled me over two decades ago.

After many years, questions started to arise, especially during and after High School where I unfortunately got into numerous schoolyard scraps. I have also experienced fights (during my bouncing days) where knives were involved. On one occasion I was stabbed in the gut, which ended with me waking up in a hospital bed later the same night. Unfortunately I did not have the time to see the knife coming… that’s a different story.

Please note that I am not trying to brag about my fighting ability or lack thereof, but rather trying to impress on you that I have had some experience with the realities of self-defense before I express my opinion. BTW, what you see below is just a rant and is only my opinion on what I have experienced and seen.

Coming from a more traditional martial arts background, I have asked myself the question on what reality fighting and self-defense really means? I’ve even started to investigate and question the ‘MMA/NHB fighting vs. self-defense debate’, especially since I come from a traditional Karate and Kung Fu background. How can you know for certain if what you are learning is functional in a street confrontation, i.e. a FIGHT?

I have always been in the camp that says, “MMA is a sport and has very little to do with the reality of self-defense considering the ‘FACT’ that MMA/NHB does not allow for biting, eye gouging, tearing (fish hooking), groin strikes etc.” And also the fact that traditional arts are superior, considering we teach all the things I mentioned above in addition to other things that you never see in the MMA arena. We practice different self-defense techniques from the choke hold, the bear hug, right punch, left punch, lapel grabs etc. These could include intricate striking combinations, joint locks, ripping, tearing, and using the elbows and knees to all the targets that are illegal in MMA. Please forgive my sarcasm…

Until recently I was naïve enough to think that traditional martial arts training (whether it’s Kung Fu, Karate, Jujutsu) was synonymous with self-defense skill. Actually I’ve known for some time that this was untrue. I just failed to realize this fact. I was enamored with the cool drills, the numerous self-defense techniques that apparently gave me an encyclopedia of knowledge in self-defense. Enter my college roommate… who happened to be a very good HS wrestler. He flung me around like a rag doll, and put me into hold I’d never seen. We even practiced with gear so I could use my real self-defense techniques and not have to hold back. Nope, he had me gasping for air on the ground in a matter of a minute. At the time I did not understand why things didn’t work. I kept training for several years after this in the same traditional art trying to figure out “self-defense”.

Now (several years later), I understand why my blows and techniques didn’t work. I had practiced pulling my punches for so long that my power, distance and timing were completely off. In addition to this, I had a partner (my roommate) who was resisting and ducking my blows, as would anyone who doesn’t like to get hit.

These days I train primarily for self-defense. I no longer train in what people would call a traditional art, although we have elements of this in our training. I would say what I do now is more like MMA. We work on the pre-fight stage (fight or flight/fear factor/de-escalation of a fight), striking, clinch, grappling (standing and ground) along with some weapons (knife and stick). I’m sure many of you guys are going to say: “Here we go again…” but hear me out. It’s not so much that MMA is superior, as I believe the ‘delivery systems’ of many arts are useful. The primary reason for training with the people I train with these days is summed up with a couple of words, ‘aliveness’ and ‘functionality’. This means we do not train in drills or techniques, but rather work with opponents providing real resistance. Much of our training is probably similar to what you would encounter in a NHB gym. It’s nothing revolutionary, since the type of training I’m referring to have been done for years in wrestling, boxing, muay thai, bjj etc. I have encountered some traditional schools that train in this way but they are certainly few and far between. And you sure as hell will not see it in a Mcdojo.

One of the things that you will find in a self-defense situation is that there is no time for fixed stances and positions, and certainly no time to execute the technique or drill you’ve worked on for so many years… fights just aren’t static… or patterned. When you are wrestling for control of the clinch, you find the timing of when to strike within the mess you’re dealing with. This is what is functional…

As I mentioned previously, that NHB is a sport, well, you’re right. BUT, these guys already have the delivery systems in place. They already know how to trade blows, get inside to the clinch, grapple and submit if they have to. And it’s all done in an ‘alive’ manner. All they have to do is “add dirt” as I read on another website a while back.

Anyway, I’ll step off my soapbox now. Thanks for reading if you made it this far. Again, these are just some of my opinions. Please feel free to comment on it…


__________________________________________________ __

There you have it!

CLG

[Sensei Kunz]

I enjoyed reading you post. I agree with you in your explainations of the differences of MA and street fighting. Many MApractioners have a false sense of self-confidence and this will get their butts handed to them in a street fight situation.

The only way to train iw with an opponent who will resist you alll the way. This light touchy stuff and pulling of punches will only get you deeper in trouble. I have experienced the same things and have mentioned this over and over, yet there are many who do not believe!

Sensei Kunz

[CLG]

Sensei Kunz,

Thanks for your reply. Please see the original thread in the Kung Fu forum at http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...threadid=12883

You may find it an interesting read...

CLG

[red5angel]

Curtis - On Self Defense - I hate that phrase, its misused and misunderstood, even by most MA people. On the rare occasion you get into a fight at a party, or at a bar, or while coaching your kids hockey game, MA may come in handy. But more often then not, if you get jumped on the street, you are up against multiple opponents, who may not have martial training, but have experience in this kind of thing anyway. Even more likely now a days is that one or more of your attackers might have a gun. no matter what you see on tv or in the movies, you cannot beat a gun.
Which brings me to my next subject, "reality Fighting". Well kids, that is reality, the reality that your martial arts, no matter how well trained cant beat the bullet, and that several tough street opponents will probably beat you to death if they need to to get your wallet.
As far as self defense goes, thats all about running away, or giving them what they want, ask any cop, these are the smartest chioces you can make.
The other bef I have with Reality Fighting is that it isnt,but many people ar eusing this phrase in place of 'truth'. Like if you Reality fight, whatever that is, you are doing it the only way, when it is just another way.

Sensei Kunz - I believe your only mistake is saying that there ' are 'arts' that cannot defend themselves. Most of the arts out there will work just fine, its the people and the training that makes the difference.
Most schools, and yes even JKD schools suffer from watered down, misunderstood ways to train and approach the martial arts. Most of the people out there who are teaching, shouldnt be.
As for forms, they are not ways of fighting, agreed. As for most fights going to the ground, that is an often misunderstood and overstated case for a popular movement in the martial arts. Most fights dont go to the ground because most street fights end in the first few seconds. The simple fact is most people arent tough enough to survive a street conflict or a good solid punch to the face. On occasion they do go to the ground, and I do believe it should be addressed by all arts, but it isnt the concenr most people make it out ot be. You can address the ground in several ways, by learning how to go to the ground, how to handle yourself on the ground, or how to not go to the ground.