The 90% statistic of street fights going to the ground a myth?

**ReverendTim** · 06-12-2002, 11:04 AM

Hey, not for nothing, but it's the fact that this forum has so much interaction between kung fu practioners and well-spoken players of other disciplines that keeps me coming back. Heck, I find Ryu and Merrypranksters' posts to be *especially* engaging.

Maybe some people want a place where everybody just reinforces everybody else's preconceived notions, but I for one like being challenged to evaluate what I think and what I do by people with different perspectives. I know that I am *quantifiably* a better martial artist than I was before I started reading this forum because of the questions the non-kung fu posters made me have to answer about my own practice.

So don't nobody go nowhere, okay?

--
Rev. Tim

**chingei** · 06-12-2002, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
chingei,

stop making sense. You're giving us knuckle dragging grapplers a bad name.

me sorry.

**Merryprankster** · 06-12-2002, 11:42 AM

Actually Les Paul, if you'd bothered to read any of "our" other posts, you'd find out that we disagree with ignorance, poor training, and bad logic regardless of where it comes from.

It's not limited to BJJ, as you have so amply demonstrated.

You certainly lend some credence to my Bertrand Russell quotation in the signature.

But, if you want to be a "true believer," unswayed by the godless heathens among you, feel free. I happen to think that what everybody here does has merit, provided training includes beating the crap out of each other on a regular basis.

**Water Dragon** · 06-12-2002, 12:58 PM

I’d like to bring up a couple of points here that I view as inaccurate. If I quote you, it’s not to insult you. It’s simply to provide a point of reference for my response:

>>From a gang fight with a knife to a teenage brawl with a bat.<<

This is pretty much the same thing. Most gangsters you see in the street are right around 14-15 years of age. In addition, belonging to a gang does not make you a bad @ss. I’ve seen more than my share of gangsters who are big pu$$ies. The guy you want to look out for is the “killer”. The guy who will pull out a gn and shoot you for no reason at all. If you run into this guy, I don’t care what you practice. It wont help you.

>>This is one of the main problems with jujitsu. Size and strength does matter. No matter how good the technique, if your being over-powered your done for!

In relation to women and self-defense, modern jujitsu just doesn't stack up!<<

I had my @ss handed to me during my second BJJ class by a 5’1” 120 lb girl. I am a 6’1” 185 lb male. The girl basically played with me. She had been training for 2 ½ years.

I also routinely thrash my 6’2” 240 lb Brother-in-law on the ground. I can throw him as well, b ut that is much harder. It is much easier to stop him from hurting me on the ground. And isn’t that the point really?

>>Last time I checked, thugs traveled in packs....hence the term 'My homies" or "them's my Boyz's"<<

This one is simply false. At least in Gary, IN East Chicago, IN or the South Side of Chicago. I truthfully can’t recall seeing a group of more than 5 on “the streets”. Of course, if you frequent gang parties there will be more. But if you frequent gang parties, you pretty much get what you deserve.

And one point from me. The single most important street applicable tech I’ve ever learned came from BJJ. It’s called an Upa. Someone else can describe it if they want.

**GunnedDownAtrocity** · 06-12-2002, 01:48 PM

it's where you throw up in their eyes and break their neck while they are blinded and paralyzed with disgust.

**Knifefighter** · 06-12-2002, 01:49 PM

I see the same old arguments are still going on here. Things never change, do they? Actually, maybe some things do, I think. Dark Night, didn't you used to be anti-BJJ/MMA?

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that you should train for what you think is important to you and/or what you think is fun. If the ground isn't your thing, don't do it. If it is, don't worry about the guys who don't want to.

I train on the ground for the following reasons:

I never backed away from a fight when I was younger and, as a result, had probably close to 30 fights by the time I was 25 or so. All of them except for one went to the ground.

I've found it's a great addition to my arsenal to be able to take things to the ground at will and to know what to do once things end up there.

I don't think I've done too many things that are as much fun as ground fighting/grappling.

I've trained with/against weapons for a long time and knowing the ground game has at least doubled my ability in this area.

**KnightSabre** · 06-13-2002, 03:06 AM

My girlfriend 5'7 121 has been grappling for about 3 years,she often comes to my school to grapple with the guys who have been training for 6 months or more.
My one student 6'0 203 and can bench over 310, can't do anything to her on the ground,sure she struggles to tap him out simply because he knows about submissions,but she sweeps him regularly has taken his back on numerous occasions and kept him tied up in her guard.
If he had no training at all she would tap him out easily.

I think size and strength matters but only when technique is equal.

An example would be the time a heavyweight kickboxer came into the gym to learn some ground fighting he was 6'4 and 275,
now I'm not small at 6'0 220 but when we grappled I basically played with him,it suprised me as much as him.

Then a while later Mark Robinson (Abu Dhabi winner) came to train with us.
This guy is 5'11 and 300 (little fat).He benches arround 600 (he's one of those world strongest guys).
I grappled with him and allthough I lasted 4 minutes before tapping I was unable to put him in any danger and merely defended using superior speed.
The guy was bigger stronger and skilled.

So yeah if you meet someone thats bigger and stronger than you and also has good technique,then you're in trouble.

One of the reasons that I supplement my training with weights is I understand that technique is good,but technique with strength is better.

**scotty1** · 06-13-2002, 03:21 AM

"One of the reasons that I supplement my training with weights is I understand that technique is good,but technique with strength is better."

So true, and very well said.

Like Knifefighter said- groundfighting, if you want to learn it, do it, if you don't, don't.

But it IS a DISTINCT possibility that you're going to end up there.

Them's the facts, do what you will with them.

**KnightSabre** · 06-13-2002, 03:46 AM

Scotty1,

So true,

I can compare the knowledge of ground fighting for a martial artist, to a bullet proof vest for a cop,it's not a certainty that he will get shot in the body,but if he does? well atleast he has the protection,the same goes for the martial artist, theres no guarantee that he will get taken down,but if it happens the ground knowledge is his vest.

**scotty1** · 06-13-2002, 05:37 AM

Good analogy. If the cop gets shot without a vest, he's fu*ked, but if hes weaering a vest he can continue the fight.

I like it.

**Dark Knight** · 06-13-2002, 07:56 AM

Dark Night, didn't you used to be anti-BJJ/MMA?

Not me, Ive been involved with grappling and cross training for years. Im also on the board of a major JJ federation.

**Dark Knight** · 06-13-2002, 09:40 AM

BTW, I also believe before you start cross training, get a couple years behind you in a style to have a solid base before trying something else. Otherwise you never get good at anything.

I meet people like this al the time Purple Belt in TKD, Blue belt in Shotokan, green Belt in Goju....

Nothing advanced. Get black in something, then spend a few years working on it from there, then think about other arts.

Some style do work well together at the same time, but not usually.

**les paul** · 06-16-2002, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by ReverendTim
Hey, not for nothing, but it's the fact that this forum has so much interaction between kung fu practioners and well-spoken players of other disciplines that keeps me coming back. Heck, I find Ryu and Merrypranksters' posts to be *especially* engaging.

Maybe some people want a place where everybody just reinforces everybody else's preconceived notions, but I for one like being challenged to evaluate what I think and what I do by people with different perspectives. I know that I am *quantifiably* a better martial artist than I was before I started reading this forum because of the questions the non-kung fu posters made me have to answer about my own practice.

So don't nobody go nowhere, okay?

--
Rev. Tim

I don't think it's wrong for someone to "sometimes" posts on a news group from a different style. (once in a while.) And maybe offer some advice from a different view point.

However.......

If you check their number of posts vs what they actually say ....you come to the conclusion that they are not really interested in Kung Fu. There here to laud over you and tell you how great Jujitsu is or how skilled they are in ground fighting.

Come on, one guys name id RYU! what's the Japenese name for style/school have to do with CMA's.....Nothing! nor does most of his posts!

So why does he post here? You tell me?

Seem's to me, if he was into something like Hokuryu Jujitsu etc etc... he would be over on some jujitsu news group shooting the **** with those guys.

Instead he's over here telling you and me that CMA's lack substance!

Judging by the number of posts he accumulated here....I dought he posted on a different news group.

Again, why are guys like him here if there not into CMA's.

Could it be that they are not really into jujitsu (cause if they were they would probably be posting on a news group with other jujitsuka)

If they are not really into jujitsu (i.e. they don't study/practice jujitsu) What are they?

**SevenStar** · 06-16-2002, 09:14 AM

Ryu is one of the most knowledgable posters here - maybe you should hang around longer before you snap judge anything. Also, what's in a name? My base style is muay thai. I originally only got into longfist because I needed something to train in as MT the old MT school closed. My name is what? SevenStar - I don't train in sevenstar mantis and don't plan to.

There is nothing wrong with posting on a forum that is outside of your style. my training now is mostly judo/shuai chiao and bjj - but I will continue to post here as long as there are good topics.

**les paul** · 06-16-2002, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
I’d like to bring up a couple of points here that I view as inaccurate. If I quote you, it’s not to insult you. It’s simply to provide a point of reference for my response:

>>From a gang fight with a knife to a teenage brawl with a bat.<<

This is pretty much the same thing. Most gangsters you see in the street are right around 14-15 years of age. In addition, belonging to a gang does not make you a bad @ss. I’ve seen more than my share of gangsters who are big pu$$ies. The guy you want to look out for is the “killer”. The guy who will pull out a gn and shoot you for no reason at all. If you run into this guy, I don’t care what you practice. It wont help you.

>>This is one of the main problems with jujitsu. Size and strength does matter. No matter how good the technique, if your being over-powered your done for!

In relation to women and self-defense, modern jujitsu just doesn't stack up!<<

I had my @ss handed to me during my second BJJ class by a 5’1” 120 lb girl. I am a 6’1” 185 lb male. The girl basically played with me. She had been training for 2 ½ years.

I also routinely thrash my 6’2” 240 lb Brother-in-law on the ground. I can throw him as well, b ut that is much harder. It is much easier to stop him from hurting me on the ground. And isn’t that the point really?

>>Last time I checked, thugs traveled in packs....hence the term 'My homies" or "them's my Boyz's"<<

This one is simply false. At least in Gary, IN East Chicago, IN or the South Side of Chicago. I truthfully can’t recall seeing a group of more than 5 on “the streets”. Of course, if you frequent gang parties there will be more. But if you frequent gang parties, you pretty much get what you deserve.

And one point from me. The single most important street applicable tech I’ve ever learned came from BJJ. It’s called an Upa. Someone else can describe it if they want.

You have had your @ss handed to you by a 5'1' 120 lbs women?

Man, your waza must suck!

Sometimes Waterdragon you talk a lot of crap! Makes me think you really don't know a lot.

Are you really ready to admit that in a knock down drag-out fight on the street that that women would kick your butt?

If yes, then you must not be able to fight your way out of a wet paper bag!

Somehow, I really dought that!

Answer me this "what's a white boy on the west side of Chicao know about gangs?"

Nothing!

I know where you train....right in the middle of the burbs....do you forget that you sent me a flyer for a seminar one time?

Seems to me, RYU and merryprankster like to throw around terms (and even you) like "ground and pound" etc etc....

Then when a guy like me tells you that size and strength does matter you tell me I'm full of crap!

Which is it?

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