Style vs style

[Dark Knight]

This thread was over on one of Scott Sonnons boards It brings out some thought.

The STYLE vs. STYLE debate lost ALL steam long ago. People KNOW now, due to MMA/NHB that styles don't fight, individuals do. As a result, most individuals jumped on the cross-training wagon.
Now, a new revolution tugs at the modern martial art movement, BEYOND CROSS-TRAINING. The old paradigm regarded propagating and representing STYLES. (You think Bruce would have dismantled this paradigm long ago, but it took another 25 years to become institutionally grass-roots with modern MMA/NHB.)

The new revolution regards the immergence of systems that specifically provide instruction for preparing the individual. We see time and time again, though, the media attempting to force these open-ended SYSTEMS into old paradigm of closed-model STYLES.

So, no longer is the question, "which STYLE is best?"

The question now becomes, "what constitutes an effective and efficient system in preparing each INDIVIDUAL for fighting?"

Here are some beginning criteria. Feel free to add or expand...

1. Which systems prepare the individual to be the most effective in the shortest amount of time?

2. Which systems most accurately uncover and refine each individual's unique skills, talents, and attributes?

3. Which systems craft and deliver continually evolving client assessment and periodization of training?

4. Which systems provide the individual longevity in fighting (through efficient training programming)?

[rogue]

It's the old JKD argument all over again. I believe I know what Scotts getting at but it's the same vaporous wording that causes confusion. Let me sum it up, "traditional bad, my system good".

Problem: he needs to define fighting. Sport, defensive, offensive,etc..

"effective in the shortest amount of time"

He needs to define what constitutes "effective" and define "shortest amount of time" which can mean anything.

"The new revolution regards the immergence of systems that specifically provide instruction for preparing the individual."

Preparing for what?

"We see time and time again, though, the media attempting to force these open-ended SYSTEMS into old paradigm of closed-model STYLES."

System: 1. A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole. 2. An organized set of interrelated ideas or principles.

A system by it's very nature will be close ended.

[Maestro1700]

dark knight (real)MA masters have always know the individual is what makes his/her style great not the other way around, just because a person may train in a great style or popular style doesnt mean he/she will become a great martial artist, the only people who really believe that there is an ultimate style(most BJJ guys feel this way) are ignorant Americans/europeans etc

bruce lee didnt revolutionize anything, he just enlightened the western world about a tiny percent of what chinese culture/martial arts are all about. thats why everyone in the west is so confused and argumentive all the time, because they usually dont know what they are talking about..and truly believe things like Jeet Kune Do, and Wing Chun are the ultimate styles of the world..

and EVERYONE doesnt know what you stated above and what im stating now..otherwise you wouldnt have the countless arguements on this forum that you do have

and, its my oppinion that i have the answer to your question of :

The question now becomes, "what constitutes an effective and efficient system in preparing each INDIVIDUAL for fighting?"

etc, i belive the answer is found in Chinese martial arts like Taijijuan..this is just an example there are so many Chinese martial arts, and several japanese martial arts which fit this description but are usually commercialized or just practiced incorrectly...i also dont think that Taijijuan is the ultimate martial art..though it does come close because of its supreme combat application..health benefits..spiritual cultivation and overall well being..again though this style of MA is another which is commercialized greatly, and is often practiced incorrectly, but if it is practiced correctly almost any style of taijijuan(wu,yang,chen,sun etc) will bring great health benefits, amazing combat skills, and a very effective way to cultivate your spirituality..as was the reason for its creation, actually an interesting bit of knowledge about taiji is that it was originally created as a means for the monks to be combat effective and at higher levels cultivate their spirituality..the awesome health benefits where sort of like a side effect..that later became a major part of taijijuan, much like its combat effectiveness

now taijijuan is a perfect example of a style that fits your criteria, and more. and i hope no one thinks im knocking down styles like BJJ or karate etc because im not, im just saying most street fights can be walked away from, and the ignorant oppinions of people that kung fu and the internal martial arts of China have no ground techniques is just a riot, the same goes for japanese martial arts which im sure do to..but i dont really know that much about them to speak intelligently on the subject

in conclusion i think that if a person wants to fulfill the criteria you have down there and even go beyond is to find a good style research its history/lineage and its philosophy, then find a good teacher and train in the system or style as much as you can and to your best ability..because its up to the individual how effective his/her style will be.

[Dark Knight]

otherwise you wouldnt have the countless arguements on this forum that you do have

Thats why is fun to come here.

in conclusion i think that if a person wants to fulfill the criteria you have down there and even go beyond is to find a good style research its history/lineage and its philosophy, then find a good teacher and train in the system or style as much as you can and to your best ability..because its up to the individual how effective his/her style will be.

Thats a good answer.

[Wilson]

Its all spokes on a wheel. You can start in any art but with hard training, asking questions, and never being satisfied with what you know, you'll end up at the same place.

Its that center of the wheel that we all want to get to.

[RMAX.tv]

Originally posted by rogue
It's the old JKD argument all over again. I believe I know what Scotts getting at but it's the same vaporous wording that causes confusion. Let me sum it up, "traditional bad, my system good".

"Rogue,"

Those are some pretty harsh accusations. Please point out where I promoted my system. I deliberately avoided doing so, because my goal was "mutual seeking" with open-minded colleagues on my forums. If you had ever met me or visited one of my classes, camps, or even seen one of my videos, you'd know I'm the opposite of self-promoting. Have any doubts? Ask anyone that has interfaced with me directly. There are individuals here that have.

Regarding your comment that my post was "vaporous."
va·por·ous Pronunciation Key (vpr-s) adj. Relating to or resembling vapor.
Insubstantial, vague, or ethereal: “the imponderable mysterious and vaporous illusions of twilight” (John C. Powys).

After 8 years in Uni. studying Philosophy, I'd have to agree with you: Asking questions (rather than answering them) IS "vague." Asking questions does not provide "substance" but requests critical thought about it. "The fundamental function of Philosophy is not to answer questions, but to question answers." - Dr. Jonathon Ellsworth Winter. When investigating, questions should not lead answers, but to stimulate better questions. You judge my intent very hastily.

What I taught 10 years ago is not what I teach now. What I teach now, shall not be what I teach 10 years from now. Evolution requires continued investigation.

Problem: he needs to define fighting. Sport, defensive, offensive,etc..

Why do I need to define these in order to ask the question about pedagogy rather than curriculla? My questions (as you will note, I did not post this here, but rather on my own forums!) addressed people engaged with the ROSS Training System. My questions regarded stimulating conversation to mutually travel a dialectic, certainly not for ME to "define" anything. I'm no guru, and my system is not "THE Way" - it's not a style.

"effective in the shortest amount of time"

He needs to define what constitutes "effective" and define "shortest amount of time" which can mean anything.

Okay, again, since these questions addressed people already engaged in the ROSS Training System, my definition of Effectiveness can be found at http://www.RMAX.tv/nature.html (edited)

Effectiveness = Opportunity / Risk

'Shortest amount of time' refers to "most expediently."

"The new revolution regards the immergence of systems that specifically provide instruction for preparing the individual."

Preparing for what?

Since this post regarded people already engaged in the ROSS Training System, they already understood that I refer to "preparation" (not "planning") within the context of Dr. Tudor Bompa's popularized notion of "General Physical Preparedness" - a concept from Russian Physical Culture (origin of the ROSS Training System.)

From our POV, GPP regards a continual state of change, stimulation and growth for continued basic preparation... for anything in life. Being part and parcel to our core doctrine, GPP is our BELIEF. We don't intend to impose that BELIEF on anyone. Should you know anything about my system then you would also know that post-GPP, the training regards SAID Principle - Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand... structured through Periodization to target particular venues, attributes, skill families and mental/emotional characteristics.

"We see time and time again, though, the media attempting to force these open-ended SYSTEMS into old paradigm of closed-model STYLES."
System: 1. A group of interacting, interrelated, or interdependent elements forming a complex whole. 2. An organized set of interrelated ideas or principles.
A system by it's very nature will be close ended.

Absolutely correct and absolutely false. A SYSTEM by its very definition is inclusive (from Greek sustma, from sunistanai, to COMBINE), whereas a STYLE by its very definition is exclusive (n 1: a particular kind as to appearance; 2: a manner of performance; "a manner of living"; "a way of life" syn: manner, mode, way, fashion 3: a way of expressing something in language or art or music etc. that is characteristic of a particular person or group of people or period; 4: the popular taste at a given time; syn: vogue, trend Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University).

A SYSTEM of martial art / combat skills / physical culture education can possess DEGREES of open-endedness, though ultimately all human systems are OBVIOUSLY close-ended being that we're humans. However, do we even really need to acknowledge that point - that we're not omniscient?

The point of my post to people on my forums regarded what CAN BE done to increase/maintain the degree of open-endedness of a SYSTEM (a vehicle for anyone to find THEIR unique way), so that it does not become a STYLE (one man's belief in "The Way").

Like I said, my post on my forums instigated thought and mutual exploration - the goal of a coach. Did you know these contexts before you made your post? Obviously not, so no problem. But next time, it may serve you better to understand the audience (ROSS enthusiasts) and the objective (mutual exploration through Q & Q, rather than guru-devotee Q&A).

Rogue, ask yourself and then answer, "How do you stack phags?"

Now, this could be a question directed towards you to make a "vaporous" insinuation towards your sexual orientation, presuming you know the answer. OR it could be a question directed to a British cigarette company regarding the most effective way for a tobacco retailer to present cigarettes in his humidor. The point? Learn the audience and context before arming for battle.

Its all spokes on a wheel. You can start in any art but with hard training, asking questions, and never being satisfied with what you know, you'll end up at the same place. Its that center of the wheel that we all want to get to.

Excellent post, Wilson. My questions only regarded facilitating that process to the "Center of the Wheel." Are there educational methods and strategies that can facilitate this individual process; contrarily, are there educational methods and strategies that hinder this individual process?

Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon
RMAX Performance Solutions
http://www.RMAX.tv
F.R.S.C. Systems, Inc.
http://www.SubjectControl.com

[Maestro1700]

rmax your post did come off as what rogue described, but not to me, i just felt i should give my 2cents about the subject and ignore the real message of that post..

and you do sound like someone who disregards traditional training methods, vs one of these new age guys and ill tell you why..

for one thing you sound like your style or whatever you teach is in your oppinion a way of staying healthy, and being able to protect yourself at the same time and in the quickest time possible..ok thats what it sounds like to me, now whats wrong with that? well ill tell you my oppinion

for one thing there are degrees of healthy, so im not even going to get into that part of the debate..but if a normal person without knowledge of the several degrees of physical fitness wants to stay fit and lean can simply go to a gym 2-3 times a week for a couple hours and with persistence become a healthy, energetic, and strong person..by average standards anyway

and the quickest way for self defense im sorry is not your style of fighting no matter how much you "evolve" the techniques, no the answer actually isnt found in any martial art its found in the local gun shop. the quickest way to completely defend yourself from any attack is to buy a hand pistol, and practice at a gun range, and also to take maybe a couple seminars on basic hand to hand techniques nothing more maybe 5 classes at best, with some basic grappling techniques, punching and sweeps and a handy gun you can basically protect yourself from ANY attacker you might encounter

now, my original post stands as my oppinion on what style or system fits your original question of fastest results, most effective and which can derive best health benefits, styles like taijijuan and others like it

why because they have evolved over the years(taijijuan over 1000 years) and because in maybe 2 years time a taijijuan practitioner should be able to defend him/her self from many forms of attacks..thats if they practice correctly, and dilligently besides having a very solid combat effectiveness the health benefits derived from taijijuan are amazing, and the spirtual cultivation individuals attain from its practice go far beyond any some ordinary people attain who go to church every sunday and listen to some one verse revolving rev, im not knocking down church or anything but its true, and no im not saying taijijuan is a religion..im just saying the spiritual aspect is just as strong as any of its other aspects like its combat effectiveness etc

the point is the best way to defend yourself is with a gun, the second point is your style or whatever you teach pales in comparison to some of these other styles you may compare to yours, they have much more depth and scope than you could ever dream of adding to your styles over the years even if you do evolve your practice for whatever reason, i dont see anyway this could be true unless you have found some way to snatch a gun from someones hand from 5 feet away or knocking them down with a chi blast etc..

[RMAX.tv]

People, get a grip. The (original) post was cross-posted from MY forum to people involved in my system!

Originally posted by Maestro1700
rmax your post did come off as what rogue described, but not to me, i just felt i should give my 2cents about the subject and ignore the real message of that post..

So let me understand this. You are "ignoring the real message?"
Let me recapitulate again to you, "Maestro1700," as I did to "Rogue." I made the post on my forums to the enthusiasts and trainees of my system for the purpose of a mutual exploration through Question-&-Question.

Please name one style to which I compared my system. In point of fact, I stated that they were incomparable. Then, please explain to me what you know about my training system. I assume that you will be incapable of honoring either request.

Please re-read my post to Rogue:

Originally posted by RMAX.tv

My post on my forums instigated thought and mutual exploration - the goal of a coach. Did you know these contexts before you made your post? Obviously not, so no problem. But next time, it may serve you better to understand the audience (ROSS enthusiasts) and the objective (mutual exploration through Q & Q, rather than guru-devotee Q&A).

Learn the audience and context before arming for battle.

If you would like to start a thread regarding answers you have developed to questions I have asked on my forums, please feel free to do so. However, do not take my questions out of contexts (of my forums, which were cross-posted here) and presume that I have asked you these questions.

Or is this what you meant in your first paragraph, that you intended to "ignore the real message" of my post on my forum for people involved with my system for Q&Q?

Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon
RMAX Performance Solutions
http://www.RMAX.tv
F.R.S.C. Systems, Inc.
http://www.SubjectControl.com

PS: As someone who trains police and military professionally, allow me to offer you this regarding firearms:

The point is the best way to defend yourself is with a gun, the second point is your style or whatever you teach pales in comparison to some of these other styles you may compare to yours, they have much more depth and scope than you could ever dream of adding to your styles over the years even if you do evolve your practice for whatever reason, i dont see anyway this could be true unless you have found some way to snatch a gun from someones hand from 5 feet away or knocking them down with a chi blast etc..

There are many more DON'T SHOOT and NO TIME TO SHOOT scenarios played out in life than there are SHOOT scenarios. Moreover, the psychological and physical skills comprising the pre-contact phase of an engagement comprise a MORE important facet of firearms than actual deployment. If firearms resolved all conflict, then we could just indiscriminately clear leather and "let God sort'em out." If firearms answered all conflict, then no one would need a courtroom defensible (read: ethical) use-of-force doctrine. Since that's not the case, the default setting for personal defensive preparedness is certainly not firearms, but pre-incident awareness skills, verbal defusion and de-escalation skills, and tactical non-verbal, gestural and spatial communication skills. Only from them can firearms be effectively and ethically deployed.

Firearms deployment under stress requires specialized training. Expecting to be able to utilize a firearm in a contact engagement by pumping brass at a range equates to expecting to be able to combatively maneuver in a demolition derby by racing your vehicle around a track. A firing range may offer familiarity with operation of a particular firearm, but the ability to effectively deploy firearms under duress of contact engagements requires specialized training.

[Dark Knight]

Scott, I brought this post over for the same reason that you posted it. I thought it would bring out some good discussion.

Learning is not always an opinion that you hold onto, it involves questions, I posted this post to bring out some questions an discussions. I didnt imagine it would be an "Attack Scott Sonnon"

Right up front you posted that its not style but the individual

People KNOW now, due to MMA/NHB that styles don't fight, individuals do.

I thought people here would have looked at the questions and expanded thier opinions on them.

rogue, I was looking to see what other peoples definitions of the different areas were.

Use the forums for learning, not just "BJJ $ucks because..."

[rogue]

Hi Scott,

Didn't mean them to be harsh or accusations Scott, was just pointing out a couple of places in your post that were vague to me in the context presented. But as you said,
"The (original) post was cross-posted from MY forum to people involved in my system!"
So code words, nomenclature and gaps in definitions wouldn't have been a problem since most readers would be in the know.

Also I wasn't attacking or even agreeing or disagreeing, "I believe I know what Scotts getting at but it's the same vaporous wording that causes confusion." See above.

The "Let me sum it up, "traditional bad, my system good". Was me trying to be cute and failing.


OK back to the question at hand,

'The question now becomes, "what constitutes an effective and efficient system in preparing each INDIVIDUAL for fighting?"'

One thing missing from the list presented is the mental/emotional aspects of fighting. There are many ways I can quickly learn tools on how to physically defend myself but how long does the mental parts of fighting/self defense take to gel in the student?

[Maestro1700]

scott..what are you talking about?

If firearms resolved all conflict, then we could just indiscriminately clear leather and "let God sort'em out."

yea..you ever heard of a thing called war? im pretty sure you do understand why those cops you train wear guns, and why every government in the world has armys and navys etc

its because guns basically do resolve all conflict, fighting is the last line of argueing, and when nations get to the end of that line guns take over.

now i didnt say **** about this in a street fight anyway, all i said is guns are the best way to defend yourself(usually just pointing a gun at someone scares them enough to let you alone, or do whatever you say) and that is 100% true otherwise those cops you train wouldnt even be wearing them, theyd all be doing your system.

and i think i recall saying a little something about seminars...yea remember that well most people go to those things all the time and by practicing on dummies and wall bags or whatever..and by practicing they get the mindset and the confidence to take down an attacker, whether it be h2h or with a gun.

the point i was making was guns are the best self defense you can get, and i did add in there some h2h skills are neccessary, i assumed you with all your vast knowledge of this brutal world of ours would know that guns are intimdating, scary, and most likely if you point one at someone they are going to either turn tail and run or do whatever you say. and most people if their lives are threatened would pull the trigger rather than stand their shaking the gun at their attacker..and even that would scare most people off because guns can be unpredictable...this isnt the movies bro not every mugger is a psycopath that would charge someone with a 357

and, maybe you arent up to date with whats going on in the U.S. but theres a huge increase in gun permiting, gun sales etc for one reason..and with that i think i made my point..unless a nation full of people are all wrong and your right scotty.

[RMAX.tv]

Dark Knight, I understand your good intentions. You are not responsible for the actions of anonymous belligerence.

Rogue, I understand your POV. Thanks for explaining it to me and anyone reading. I agree with you that one must ask the question - "Does the system address the mental, emotional and moral factors beyond the physical?"

Maestro1700, thanks for leaving unaddressed the fact that your prior comments were inappropriate. Thank you additionally for exposing your emotional maturity. People will be certain to dismiss your comments based upon your maturity.

Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon
RMAX Performance Solutions
http://www.RMAX.tv
F.R.S.C. Systems, Inc.
http://www.SubjectControl.com

BTW, Maestro1700, if you're actually from Connecticut, better conduct some more effective research of your local criminal codes and your local D.A. If a hostile situation can be resolved without firing a firearm, you may not brandish a firearm. You may not draw your handgun unless lethal force is required. Please tell me you're not old enough to own a firearm yet.

Originally posted by Maestro1700
guns can be unpredictable

No, young man, firearms, being machines, require the operation of a human, and are very predictable. The only unpredictability emanates from individuals that do not understand this point.



You entered July 2, 1984 as your birthday in your profile, making you 17 years young. Before you become an adult, for your own sake (and especially everyone else's), contact an adult with professional firearms training.

But then again, my original post, cross-posted here by Dark Knight, from my forum to my people had nothing to do with this. Dark Knight however, has illuminated for the reason-impaired WHY he cross-posted. But maybe you "ignored the real message" right?

[Maestro1700]

whatever scotty..i guess your my intellectual superior

its funny how you knowitalls always answer your own questions and hang out on places like these where all people do is argue..

you obviously took offense to my post, and i have to say thats the longest PS ive ever seen..i guess thats your way of saying the last word and saving face at the same time eh?

well of course you dont want to discuss this further..you just want to make your point, attack my age and maturity..write a huge ps message about how i dont know my state laws and conducts..but whatever i guess i should have known better before i messed with you, your way out of my league.

[Merryprankster]

Maestro1700,

Scott is rather knowledgeable, and clearly bright. You on the other hand, have left both those elements somewhat in question.

I don't always agree with Scott, and I find his jargon "buzzwordy," but that doesn't change the validity of his message. It's a bit like Louis Farrakhan--I disagree with the jargon he uses as well as bits of his message, however, I agree with the fundamental points he makes about education, self-reliance, and self-love (not to be confused with either narcissim or onanism for the more perverted amongst us )

Learn to read with some nuance and understanding.

Better yet, just learn to read...

[rogue]

Hope we're cool now Scott and could you or Dark Knight(you little trouble maker you) post a link to the original thread?

If anybody is interested here's a link about adrenal response on e-budo, that features Scott, Darren Luerer and others. Check it out if you haven't.
It was posted here on the main forum under "Attn MerryP, Ryu and Black Jack and anybody:
Good Discussion about Adrenal Response"