Pai An and Tang Lang Shun Fa

[mantis108]

Tainan posted this on the other thread. I thought it not only deserves its own thread but also brought up some interesting point in Shun Fa.

First the post:

<<<Tainan wrote:

Pai An
PM has a basic skeletal framework that the practitioner can use as hooks (figuratively) to hang other techniques.

This skeletal framework is 1 or 2 short partner exercises going down the line.

Different schools use different names...
Pai An
Po An
Yen Ching Po Fa
Lian Er Zhang
little/big open gate

This method dates back to at least Liang Hsuehsiang, the common denominator of all PM styles except 6 Harmony.

Some advantages of this method...
After mastering this short partner drill both people can use full speed and power while trying to hit the correct target.

As long as the proper defense is used no one will be maimed.

New techniques can be added to the original drill which makes for a unique method of organizing the information in the mind...

...proper mental organization is essential so that the student's mind can react without deliberate thought.

This method is not unique to PM. It exists in other styles or at least a variant of it.

This type of methodology most likely descends from weapons.
For example:
In saber vs saber the student learns a lot about timing, distance, etc while doing repetitive drills.
If one student chops off his partners hand by mistake because he wanted to be creative he may face a severe reprimand from his teacher.
Also,+ the teacher may get a bad reputation if all his students are digitally challenged.

So this method of drilling helps preserve your own students while teaching you the first step in how to defeat the opponent.>>>

There are quite a few version of Pai An as noted by Tainan. Basically, regardless of variations, it has 3 hand techs and 2-3 kicking techs commonly found in Mantis. The hand techniques or rather concepts are Rolling (Gwan), Leaking (Lau) and Fill (Pu). The kicks are straight kick(Hoi Moon), low Sweep kick (So Tong) and outside Cresent (Bai Lin). The partner will have to exercise Shun Fa which is categorized as "Seem Jin Tang Nor" as the kicks are coming in. Seem Jin Tang Nor is a category of techniques that are not unlike dodging, bobbing, waving, darting, etc... in Boxing. Moreover, it has also jumping, leaping, etc... to avoid kicks or takedowns. The most interesting part of the SJTN is that it is base on the very same principle of attack and defense simutanelously. For example, dodging and head butt at the same time. In that respect, Mantis Shun Fa is far more advanced than western Boxing. That definitely needs the whole body involve otherwise the attack (ie the head butt) won't have any weight behind it while dodging.

Pai An definitely is an important training platform for Praying Mantis.

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

To my knowledge no such form exists.
The little open gate of TJPM is not related to the WL form of the same name.
But, the WL partner form has some similarities to the 8 Step Pai An form. I'm not sure if that is a coincidence.

Anyway, the WL partner form can serve the same purpose as Po An.
As you are doing the form just do a move on your opponent that is not originally in that form.

EG:
When "A" ducks under "B"s kick, "A" does a single leg takedown.
Of course"B" must know how to fall safely.

[mantis108]

Thanks Tainan, that's interesting.

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by mantis108

There are quite a few version of Pai An as noted by Tainan. Basically, regardless of variations, it has 3 hand techs and 2-3 kicking techs commonly found in Mantis. The hand techniques or rather concepts are Rolling (Gwan), Leaking (Lau) and Fill (Pu). The kicks are straight kick(Hoi Moon), low Sweep kick (So Tong) and outside Cresent (Bai Lin). The partner will have to exercise Shun Fa which is categorized as "Seem Jin Tang Nor" as the kicks are coming in. Seem Jin Tang Nor is a category of techniques that are not unlike dodging, bobbing, waving, darting, etc... in Boxing. Moreover, it has also jumping, leaping, etc... to avoid kicks or takedowns. The most interesting part of the SJTN is that it is base on the very same principle of attack and defense simutanelously. For example, dodging and head butt at the same time. In that respect, Mantis Shun Fa is far more advanced than western Boxing. That definitely needs the whole body involve otherwise the attack (ie the head butt) won't have any weight behind it while dodging.

Mantis108

In 8 step, Po An also has double face hanging(Er Chi Gua Mein) kick. It is in responds to the sweep kick.

And there is one funny thing, In 8 steps, the order of learning 2 man forms are 7 hands, Li Pi, and the Po An. However, many has only 7 hands and Po An, no Li Pi. Funny that they don't learn Li Pi 2 man form while learning Large Water Wheel (Da Fan Che) and got Po An, which should be learned after learned the 2nd chapter(Er Duan).

[Tainan Mantis]

Paul Lin,
So you teach 2 man lipi before po an?

I would like to know what you think about these two variations...

For those of you who don't know lipi, I'll describe the beginning of the form. It is like Beng bu

Beng bu: From the mantis seizes the cicada at the beginning of beng bu to the right stance right punch known as bu chuei.
A total of three techniques.

This section is almost the exact same as the first road of lipi. In the next move you turn 180 degrees and do a low strike.

The way I learned the 2 man set it is almost the exact same as the solo set, but I have seen other people do the partner set and it is not the same as their solo set.

For example in the above mentioned first moves of lipi the "set" performer turns 180 degrees because he is chasing the other guy in that direction.

But, in other schools of 2 man lipi the "set" performer doesn't turn around 180 degrees like he does in the solo form. Instead he keeps going in the same original direction.
So his solo form and partner form are actually quite diferent in this regard. There are several more examples throughout the form like this.

[mantis108]

Thank you Paul and Tainan. Great stuff!

Paul, you are right about the kick. I should have put in the partner side techniques as well. Thanks for the reminder. BTW, I like you explanation on the Seem Jin Tang Nor (different Pinyin) on the other thread. It helps to visualize the partner side.

I have seen the 7 hands, Lipi and Po An clips (all 8 Steps?). It would seem that Lipi is the longest of them all. It is taught in the middle? That's indeed interesting.

Regards

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Paul Lin,
So you teach 2 man lipi before po an?

I would like to know what you think about these two variations...

For those of you who don't know lipi, I'll describe the beginning of the form. It is like Beng bu

Beng bu: From the mantis seizes the cicada at the beginning of beng bu to the right stance right punch known as bu chuei.
A total of three techniques.

This section is almost the exact same as the first road of lipi. In the next move you turn 180 degrees and do a low strike.

The way I learned the 2 man set it is almost the exact same as the solo set, but I have seen other people do the partner set and it is not the same as their solo set.

For example in the above mentioned first moves of lipi the "set" performer turns 180 degrees because he is chasing the other guy in that direction.

But, in other schools of 2 man lipi the "set" performer doesn't turn around 180 degrees like he does in the solo form. Instead he keeps going in the same original direction.
So his solo form and partner form are actually quite diferent in this regard. There are several more examples throughout the form like this.

Our LiPi 2 man forms has 3 sections. The sections were about when are you going to turn around in the solo form. But the first trun--Laio Yin--like you have metioned, didn't take the trun in our 2 man form. It was continue with another bu chuei instead of truning back with LaioYin. The first section is up to the DengTa, right before the truning. The 2nd section will have the attacker turn to the defender, up right before he elbow poke(Ding Shin Jow). 3rd will finish up includes sweeps.

We do teach LiPi before Po An. LiPi is more continue form 7 hand then PoAn. And the combos in PoAn wouldn't be in the form untill you passed the 2nd chapter. But LiPi's combos are already taught when one starts the Large Waterwheel. That is the order they should be taught.