Wing Chun in Madison WI

[reneritchie]

PSK - Just Rene is fine. I don't like politics either and humbly suggest you leave whatever baggage or chips you're carrying at the door.

Please remember you're posting on a public board, using the name Pien San Kune, which places some responsibility on you towards that art. Many people may be completely unfamiliar with it, and the clearer the information you provide, the better.

Like Jim, I've enjoyed numerous exchanges with Jurg, and always enjoyed them not only for the quality of his skill, but for the quality of his manner as well.

RR

[planetwc]

Read what correctly? Your attitude? It's fairly bristling...

So the clips of Austin Goh in his class in his yellow shaolin outfit with his students rraining in the background is not what they practice but something else?

And the video tapes he sells with him sparring with his students and going from student to student with Muay Thai kicks and boxing gloves is not what he teaches either?

Does that also mean the books he has out aren't what he teaches either? Did I waste my time buying "The Breaking Power of Wing Chun?"?

Out of curiosity then, what IS he showing then on his video clips, his video tapes and his books?

It explains why Austin's body mechanics seem to be at odds with other systems. But since you said he isn't really showing his Wing Chun, I guess it is one of those russian puzzle dolls, with systems inside of systems inside of systems.

Or as Slim Shady might say, "Will the real Austin Goh, please stand up?"

Originally posted by Pien San Kune
Learn to read correctly...

he learned from lee shing, so I guess it's lee shing wing chun, right?!

plus, what he shows on his videos is not what he really teaches to his students. he doesnt want people to learn only from his videos.

but I better go and practise on my wooden dummy, so maybe, one day I become as good as you guys...

bye

PS: so what does it explain planet wc??

[Pien San Kune]

I suggest you better meet the real austin goh, before you keep on talkin bout him!!!

[black and blue]

Despite the lineage wars our art suffers, I know a number of guys practising WC from different lineages here in the UK. Most are pretty friendly regarding other lineages, but I've never heard anything good about Austin Goh.

I've looked at his website (I haven't met him in person to talk to), and seen the mpeg footage he shows from his school. Lots of high roundhouse kicks, tag-me sparring and hopping about.

I'm no expert, but I've never seen "Wing Chun" like it.

And anyone wearing those yellow robes deserves a little fun poked at them, yes?

Duncan

[Jim Roselando]

Load Down,


Some corrections on your lineage chart for you.


1st) It is impossible for Lee Shing to have learned from Chan Wah Shun as Chan Wah was dead before Lee Shing was born.

2nd) Joseph Lee was not from the Fung family. He was a pupil of Lee Shing.

3rd) You mentioned minmal Pin Sun methods from Leung Bik and Fung family. Leung Bik is not part of the Pin Sun Wing Chun family. It was his father who created Pin Sun Wing Chun and Leung Bik has nothing to do with our art.


Hope that helps!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hi Jim,

Chan might have still been alive briefly during Lee sifu's childhood, but after suffering a stroke and retiring back to Shunde, its likely he didn't teach anyone younger than, or after Yip Man. Same token, Jiu Wan is probably chronologically impossible as well. In China, Jiu Wan is listed as a student of Chan Wah-Shun's son, Chan Yiu-Min, and of his own uncle, Jiu Chao (a student of Chan Yiu-Min).

Leung Bik teaching Pien San is also very difficult chronologically, as Leung Jan didn't develop that art until after he retired back to Gulao village.

I agree with others that lineage is not proof of skill, but still it is our history, and since China is more open now, and the internet allows information to flow more freely, we should all make an effort to keep things as clear as possible.

RR

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Rene,


Good stuff! thanks for the input!


I figured if Chan took stroke shortly after Yip started then it would have been impossible for Lee Shing to learn from him. I completely forgot about his moving back to Shunde.

I kind of thought Jiu Wan and Lok Yiu were the two Yip pupils that introduced Lee Shing to YMWC and then eventually Yip Man?


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Jim,

Jiu Wan taught in Foshan then moved to HK. Some say in HK he continued studying with his Sisuk, Yip Man, but other Jiu Wan folks hotly dispute this. Since there's been so much politics over the years, who knows? I've met three tosuen of Jiu Wan sifu and they all did things differently, so its hard to say through a strict system comparison either, but in all cases there were elements in their WCK that seemed to come from Yip Man, rather than Chan Yiu-Min's line. And as far as I understand, Lee Shing did study with both Lok sifu and Jiu sifu before being introduced to Yip Man sifu.

RR

[loaddown]

Dear Readers To Whom It May Concern:

Thanks for all the well-researched inputs. However before I can accept any corrections all the statements have to be accompanied with dates so that others can verify. I know this would mean a lot of hard work that might not worth these people's time; but as these few worthies have propagated a small number of important views that do affect many people of not our generation but of generations to come, I think it is the onerous' is on them to provide the proves as in the matter of dates and sources.

Nevertheless, I do see some corrections are required for my hasty chart and if more information is forth coming then more amendments will be made.

See file attachment.

Wai-Sing Fung.


P.S. Because of the small amendments I made to the lineage diagram I have deleted the previous post above in which I have shown my appreciation to the literature work others have putted out on which the lineage diagram was based. This postscript was necessary due to the post below as the lineage diagram was based on these multiple literate sources. Once again the information are much appreciated.

[reneritchie]

Loaddown,

I'd humbly suggest that since it's "your" information which contradicts established chronologies, student listings, etc. in China and HK, that you'll have to be the one to put up the dates and try to show how it could potentially be valid. For example, if someone said Yip Man learned directly from Wong Wah-Bo, despite the well established tradition linking him to Chan Wah-Shun, the burden would be upon them to support the contention.

If you're interested in following up, Chan Yiu-Min's descendants in Shunde have a listing of Chan's students (which does not include Lee Shing or Jiu Wan), Pan Nam's descendants have Jiu Chao's, the Fung's in Gulao have the Pien San info, while Lok Yiu is still alive and can probably clarify the Yip Man aspect.

Rgds,

RR

[loaddown]

To whom it May Concern:

I am not overly curious than most, well not exceptionally so, but I do enjoy interesting information and new ideas that are good. Because of that I rather preferred not to be overly direct in my criticism to prove that some one is wrong. This is because it would jeopardise the willingness and atmosphere of the flow of information.

This so in my previous encounter on this and another forum. Sadly despite my best subtleties and diplomacy I have proven people wrong and this had made for myself many people who dislike me intensely. What can I do except in my own defence I like say I like to test assumptions whether they are right or wrong. In addition I like to put forward new ideas of my own, as I have done so in the past.

The denial of such an animosity would just be dishonesty as part of a clever trick. Yet keep the peace I must and be polite about it in the manoeuvre of politics of proving something is whether right or wrong. Most times this is done with quite honourable motives while the rest of the time it have to stand the rigour of reason, prove, and worthwhile-ness. This time it does not prove worth while for all parties concern to get the data necessary to back up ones argument. This I feel so.


Wai-Sing Fung.

[martyg]

Originally posted by Pien San Kune
Thanx for correction, Master Ritchie!!

BTW, why dont you send your regards to Juerg yourself?? www.kungfu.ch

BTW2:
I am not a historian, my aim is Wing Chun. and I dont give a s#$t if it's pien san, gao lo or whatever. I know the wing chun I learned from GM A. Goh and M J. Ziegler is highly effective, and thats why I do Wing Chun!!
I am so tired of this politics: my wc is better than yours, because I learned from this and that master...blablabla

I think you're reading more in to it than is meant. Nobody is saying anything like what you're suggesting. If anything, the people you're talking with are known for being anti-political.

When people have exposure to many different branches, as the people you're talking to have, knowing a person's linneage helps to have something create a common reference and understanding of where the other person is coming from. Different concepts, principles and techniques mean different things to different branches.

Anyways, I teach in Milwaukee and just wanted to let you know that you have an open hand of friendship and support here if you need it. Always nice to meet another wing chun brother, especially one so close to my back yard. I do have some basic experience in Gulou via Leung Jan->Yim Sei->Tam Yeung->Kwan Jong Yuen->Robert Chu->Me

Welcome!



Marty

[loaddown]

To Whom It May Concern:

A photograph from Wong Shun Leung private collection was printed out in the History section of http://www.vingtsun.org.hk. The late Li Kam Shing Sifu was shown standing beside the late Wong Shun Leung Sifu. Close by sitting in the middle of the photograph is late Yip Man Sifu. From this photograph there is certainly an age difference between the late Li Kam Shing Sifu and the late Yip Man Sifu. However, accurate birth dates and final ages especially in regard to Chan Wah Shun are still the only conclusive data.

Wai-Sing Fung.

[loaddown]

To Whom It May Concern:
The identification of Li Kam Shing in the above photograph as the late Sifu Lee Shing as of yet have not been verify and therefore an error on my part can not be rule out. This is so because I do NOT have late Sifu Lee Shing’s name in Chinese character and I could have gotten muddled up since the family name of Lee or Li is quite numerous as proven in the number of Lee’s or Li’s in the photographs mentioned above in the history section of http://www.vingtsun.org.hk between the years 1950 to1970. If I have made an error I do apologise before hand for any embarrassment and inconvenient that I may have cause.

Wai-Sing Fung.

P.S. The rendering of the late Sifu Lee Shing's name in chinese character in http://www.wingchunkuen.com could not be verify in the vtaa website as I could not find that particuler rendering of the late Sifu Lee Shing in the afore mention website either.