7 Star: Exits Cave & Steals Peach

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantis108

In 7* 14 Road Tan Tui

Road #5 He Hu Tou Shin (Black Tiger Steal Heart).

1. Left Avoid Hardness Ready for Foe disposition (or left Bi Shr)
2. Left Hiking stance Left filing punch/upper cut
3. Left Hiking Stance right straigh punch (to the face)
4. Horse stance left steal heart punch
5. Right Forearm Chop plus Right low kick
6. Repeat to the above (right side this time)
...

BTW, Steal Heart Punch (direct punch to solar plex) is one the 8 forbidden strikes in Mantis.

"- what is Go Lu Tsai hands ?"

Hook-Grab-Pluck is the classic Mantis combo. There are quite a few ways to use it. It would seem that the Mantis Steal Peach form have some great combos to go with this hand.

"I have been taught the forms without the classic nomeclature being assigned to the steps and movements therefore am at a disadvantage in communicating with you.

I am not sure what a Go Lu Tasi hand is but probably practice it often if it is in the forms... "

I believe half the battle of learning Mantis is in the enormous amount of terminology. Almost every school has a unique way of describing the same moves. Sometime we see debate which the parties involved are actually on the same side of the fence but arguing because of confusing terminology. That's why it is a continuing effort for us to search for universal and traditional terminology for PM Kung Fu. Anyway, hope this help clarify certain things.

Mantis108

Thx much for all the information.

Is TJPM the same as Tai-Chi PM ? If so I met some local TJPM people a few months back. As I understand it they are from Chiu Chuk Kai -> Kam Yuen -> Mike Vendrell lineage.... or so their literature says. Very interesting variation of forms. We did Piercing Fist side by side and were amazed at the differences in the likeness.

I think I know what jade ring step/hand is. It is a take down that can be stepped into from many positions and is in most of the forms that I practice. We practice this for example, in the Bung-Bo (Crushing Step) two man fighting set.

Hook, grab, pluck is my favourite technique of Mantis. I have been exposed in-depth to many non-Mantis systems including Kempo, Karate, Jui-Jitsu, Hung-Gar, Long Fist and White Crane (probably left a few out) and never encountered anything like this method. In fact it singularily convinced me to emphasize my PM training over everything else.

What is 14 Road Tan Tui in English ? Can you translate for me ? I may know the form but have been taught it under a different name ?

Is a 'Road' akin to a line in the form ? Eg -- a line in my terminology is to take several steps in one direction, north. When the form does a 180 degree turn in the other direction continuing now south -- would the north line be one 'Road 1' and the south line be 'Road 2' and on and on ?

I agree the terminology battle is great. I practice about 31 PM hand forms and 7 weapons forms. I have them all written down in descriptive narratives that sometimes do not make sense even to me when I read them months later ! Now that I have put an end to the learning of new Mantis forms I have to find a standardized method of naming and categorizing as well as segregating of techniques and methods. I want to do so using the classical names of forms, steps and methods and if possible be able to identify the author as well. In most cases I haven't a clue what the classical name would be or who the original author is. I have a book by Li Kam Wing The Secrets of PM Kung-fu which is very helpful but the translation suffers occasionally but it does help with things like 'filing punches', 'drilling punches', 'millstone palms', etc so I have something to work with.

thx again,
UM.

[northernJump]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Stealing the Peach does not mean grabbing someone's privates as can easily be confirmed by looking at the old manuscript.
Peach means the opponents head, This technique is a head grabbing face smash.
[/B]

OK if so where in BYTT is the head grabbing face smash ie 1st, 2nd or 3rd lines. I'm not saying you're wrong I just can't think of where there is such a move in the form I've learnt. I understood that peach is traditionally the symbol for immortality/longevity which is where the connection with peoples privates came about. For what its worth the very first move of the BYTT I've learnt is a mantis hook strike to the groin.

HK 7*
BYTT was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach. All those other forms mentioned by ursa major are most likely made up by Luo Guangyu or adaptions of forms he learned elsewhere. They are not found in old lists of PRC 7* PM forms.

So the HK 7* BYTT is not that old form we have been talking about. It was renamed Praying Mantis Steals the Peach. [/B]

Are you sure of this ? We have both BYTT and Praying Mantis Steals the Peach and they are very different. My sifu's sifu was from HK so I'm assuming its the same 7* branch.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by northernJump
OK if so where in BYTT is the head grabbing face smash ie 1st, 2nd or 3rd lines. I'm not saying you're wrong I just can't think of where there is such a move in the form I've learnt. I understood that peach is traditionally the symbol for immortality/longevity which is where the connection with peoples privates came about. For what its worth the very first move of the BYTT I've learnt is a mantis hook strike to the groin.
Are you sure of this ? We have both BYTT and Praying Mantis Steals the Peach and they are very different. My sifu's sifu was from HK so I'm assuming its the same 7* branch.

Thanks for pointing this out I have some similar questions.

The versions of Mantis Steals Peach and White Ape Steals Peach that I practice both have lineage through Wong Hon Fun of HK. I did not learn these from WHF of HK although I have validated what I have learned by studying his scripts/books of same material.

The White Ape Steals Peach as I learned it and practice it -- starts with (in my terminology) left circle entering with left palm block and right inverted mantis strike to groin followed by same hand tear off of groin then standing to right long-fist punch, etc. My understanding is that this strike and tear-off is the 'Steals Peach' in the form.

Oddly enough my Mantis Steals Peach has no similar technique.
This is one of the reasons I made the original post. If Ape Steals Peach is defined by the technique as described above then how does Mantis Steals Peach derive a similar name when it does not share the 'steals peach technique' ?

Always more questions than answers.

thx in advance,
UM.

[Young Mantis]

I have been told that originally there was one form called simply "Tao Tow" (Steals Peach). I have heard that this form is sometimes referred to as "Bahk Yuen Tao Tow" (White Ape Steals Peach) in PRC China and under GM LGY's lineage as "Tong Long Tao Tow" (Mantis Steals Peach) but is the same form. There is also a separate BYTT form in the LGY lineage that seems to have been added to the curriculum at a later time.

As far as the forms go, my versions sound like everyone's accounts thus far for both BYTT and TLTT.

Ursa Major, if you are looking for the classical names for forms, I would suggest you to check out www.northernmantis.com. We list the forms we teach with the traditional Chinese characters, the Cantonese Pronunciations, and the English translations. If I remember correctly, you are a student of Sifu Phillipman Chow who is supposed to be of WHF lineage so the curriculum should be similar. I have noticed that Sifu Chow's terminology or translation of form names differs from most other translations I have seen but the Chinese names should be consistent.

YM

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
... Ursa Major, if you are looking for the classical names for forms, I would suggest you to check out www.northernmantis.com. We list the forms we teach with the traditional Chinese characters, the Cantonese Pronunciations, and the English translations. If I remember correctly, you are a student of Sifu Phillipman Chow who is supposed to be of WHF lineage so the curriculum should be similar. I have noticed that Sifu Chow's terminology or translation of form names differs from most other translations I have seen but the Chinese names should be consistent.
YM

Yes I agree there seems to be a terminology difference. I learned what you call Stabbing Fist as Lightning Attack. I have also heard of it as Piercing Fist. A fellow I know translated the Chinese characters for me says Piercing Fist is very close so I suppose is Stabbing Fist also. I now call the form Piercing Fist.

BTW: great web page thx for the link hopefully next time I am in NY, NY I can stop in for a visit ?

regards,
UM.

[Hau Tien]

Young Mantis,

That's a very nice site... one of the better ones I've seen out there for our style. My only complaint would be that they show Bung Bo on there... every PM site does Why not Daw Gong or (as this thread is about) Tow Toe?

Also... out of all the crap that's been posted on this forum lately, it certainly is nice to see a well discussed, well thought out thread for once!


Thanks to you guys for putting out a decent thread!

[mantis108]

"Thx much for all the information."

You are most welcome, my friend.

"Is TJPM the same as Tai-Chi PM ? If so I met some local TJPM people a few months back. As I understand it they are from Chiu Chuk Kai -> Kam Yuen -> Mike Vendrell lineage.... or so their literature says. Very interesting variation of forms. We did Piercing Fist side by side and were amazed at the differences in the likeness. "

Although Kam Yuen is active in the CCK TCPM circle, he has a rather Northern Shaolin (?) background and I believe 7* PM as well. Piercing Fist, which is Wong YongShan's creation (?), is not a TJPM form. That was part of the confusion when the Tai Mantis association started in the USA. People thought that it's the TJPM/TCPM style as it was taught by Sigung Chiu. This has recently been clarified.

"I think I know what jade ring step/hand is. It is a take down that can be stepped into from many positions and is in most of the forms that I practice. We practice this for example, in the Bung-Bo (Crushing Step) two man fighting set. "

Thanks for the info. Very interesting.

"Hook, grab, pluck is my favourite technique of Mantis. I have been exposed in-depth to many non-Mantis systems including Kempo, Karate, Jui-Jitsu, Hung-Gar, Long Fist and White Crane (probably left a few out) and never encountered anything like this method. In fact it singularily convinced me to emphasize my PM training over everything else. "

Yes to the signature hands of PM.

"What is 14 Road Tan Tui in English ? Can you translate for me ? I may know the form but have been taught it under a different name ? "

14 Roads of Springing Leg/kick. It's the creation of GM LGY. It's the short line drill type of exercise. In certain ways, it's similar in concept to CCK TCPM Sau Fa and the Muslin art Tan Tui.

Is a 'Road' akin to a line in the form ? Eg -- a line in my terminology is to take several steps in one direction, north. When the form does a 180 degree turn in the other direction continuing now south -- would the north line be one 'Road 1' and the south line be 'Road 2' and on and on ?

Yes, there's a road. But sometimes in the name of the form it has the word Road (in Chinese). In that case, it means section or routine. (ie Bai Yuen Tou Tao Yi Lu - First section/routine of White Ape Steal Peach). BTW, to my knowledge there are 2 sections of BYTT. About 5 - 6 roads for the first section and 3 roads for the second section. I believe the openning of the 2nd section is the Mantis Hook to the groin.

"I agree the terminology battle is great. I practice about 31 PM hand forms and 7 weapons forms. I have them all written down in descriptive narratives that sometimes do not make sense even to me when I read them months later ! Now that I have put an end to the learning of new Mantis forms I have to find a standardized method of naming and categorizing as well as segregating of techniques and methods. I want to do so using the classical names of forms, steps and methods and if possible be able to identify the author as well. In most cases I haven't a clue what the classical name would be or who the original author is. I have a book by Li Kam Wing The Secrets of PM Kung-fu which is very helpful but the translation suffers occasionally but it does help with things like 'filing punches', 'drilling punches', 'millstone palms', etc so I have something to work with.

thx again, "

Thanks for sharing your experience. Hope you will bring up more interesting thread such as this one.

Mantis108

[BeiTangLang]

While it is not my site, I would guess the reason to be that Bung Bo is a relatively consistant (or should be) form throughout all of mantis. The easiest way to benchmark several systems/families is to compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Another reason would be, even though it is not meant to be instructional for a novice, someone may try to learn a form through pictures rather than instruction & claim the form to be of a linneage they are not titled to.
As I said, these are just guesses; but the content makes sense to me. Once again, a well made site.
~BTL

[mantis108]

OK if so where in BYTT is the head grabbing face smash ie 1st, 2nd or 3rd lines. I'm not saying you're wrong I just can't think of where there is such a move in the form I've learnt. I understood that peach is traditionally the symbol for immortality/longevity which is where the connection with peoples privates came about. For what its worth the very first move of the BYTT I've learnt is a mantis hook strike to the groin.

Very good info and question.

I think I will leave the head smash explanation to Tainan. Conceptually the peach represent immortality/longevity; therefore, any techniques that you do to cut short the life (steal the longevity) of the opponent can be understood as stealing the peach. Incidently, most of the traditional name for grabing the groin (at in TJPM traditions) is called Chui Bao (taking the treasure) or Lao Yue (scooping the moon). Whether you smash the guy's head (breaking his neck), grabbing his throat (smashing the adam's apple), punch to his solar plex or grab/smash his family jewel, it's all the same cutting his life short (steal peach). Sifu Profatilov properly have the old manuscript than has the head smashing move named as such or his teacher had indicated to him in person? Anyway, I am all for variations or so-called hidden applications.

I believe the old manuscript (quanpu) used poetic and descriptive names to convey key points to a move. This is changing into modern mechanical descriptions and in a way created a lot more confusion than it should. It is a difficult task to convince those knowledgeable people really to open up the systems. In the information age, a concerted effort is much needed to bring the true legacies of the pass masters. Just some thoughts to share with you all.

Regards

Mantis108

[Skarbromantis]

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OK if so where in BYTT is the head grabbing face smash ie 1st, 2nd or 3rd lines. I'm not saying you're wrong I just can't think of where there is such a move in the form I've learnt. I understood that peach is traditionally the symbol for immortality/longevity which is where the connection with peoples privates came about. For what its worth the very first move of the BYTT I've learnt is a mantis hook strike to the groin.
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I have to agree i always thought it ment babies, i would like to know where the face smash is also.

Great thread guys, good information, keep it going.

Skard1

[Mantis9]

Young Mantis

Hey, give a shout out to my sihing, Jesse Gottesman, would ya?

My sifu just showed us his copy Sifu Chuy's 30th(?) Anniversary book. Very nice



All

Great thread!

[Mantis9]

Young Mantis

BTW, my name is Micah. Jesse might wonder who Mantis9 is.

[Young Mantis]

Hi Micah,

Thanks for the compliments on the Anniversary Book. It was actually our 20th Anniversary.

I will pass along your regards to Jesse the next time I see him.

Thanks to Ursa Major, Hau Tien, and BeiTangLang for the compliments on the website. As for the photos for Bung Bo, yes many sites show that form and it was something Sifu Chuy deliberated on but eventually decided that everyone studying NPM must know Bung Bo so it is a good one for others to see how we do it. BTL, you are quite insightful in your guess. Thanks always for your support.

Ursa Major, of course you are welcome to drop in and visit. The invitation is open to everyone to come and see our school.

YM

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantis108
... Conceptually the peach represent immortality/longevity; therefore, any techniques that you do to cut short the life (steal the longevity) of the opponent can be understood as stealing the peach. Incidently, most of the traditional name for grabing the groin (at in TJPM traditions) is called Chui Bao (taking the treasure) or Lao Yue (scooping the moon). Whether you smash the guy's head (breaking his neck), grabbing his throat (smashing the adam's apple), punch to his solar plex or grab/smash his family jewel, it's all the same cutting his life short (steal peach).

... I believe the old manuscript (quanpu) used poetic and descriptive names to convey key points to a move. This is changing into modern mechanical descriptions and in a way created a lot more confusion than it should. It is a difficult task to convince those knowledgeable people really to open up the systems. In the information age, a concerted effort is much needed to bring the true legacies of the pass masters. Just some thoughts to share with you all. Regards, Mantis108

Ahhh... cutting the life short... stealing the peach... this is compelling. Now I finally understand.

Mantis108, my search for the original, classical 'poetic and descriptive names' whether forms or methods within forms, is my response in the face of this trend toward 'modern mechanical descriptions' that you describe. My most difficult task has been in locating reliable, qualified sources of knowledge on the 7 Star system. To-date I have been moderately successful in my quest and would like to convey that this forum through individuals like yourself and others have provided me with much useful insight. I am grateful.

But I still have a long way to go. Once I read that "... we stand on a beach on an island in the midst of an illimitable oceon of the unknown, the task of each generation is to reclaim a little more sand...". I think this most clearly reflects my passion in studying 7 Star. Having learned so much 7 Star I am now on a quest to understand in full that which I have learned.

I read that 7 Star Praying Mantis was named by it's founder after the constellation Ursa Major also known as the Big Dipper. The story continued that the founder of 7 Star named it so because he wanted this system to be known by as many people as could see this constellation.

It is a beautiful story and one that will not be possible unless we, the holders of the system, one generation at a time, continue to strive with exactitude for originality and authenticity.

Well these are some of my thoughts on the matter of the legacies of past masters in modern times.

thx,
UM.

[mantis108]

"Ahhh... cutting the life short... stealing the peach... this is compelling. Now I finally understand."

Glad you find it helpful.

"Mantis108, my search for the original, classical 'poetic and descriptive names' whether forms or methods within forms, is my response in the face of this trend toward 'modern mechanical descriptions' that you describe. My most difficult task has been in locating reliable, qualified sources of knowledge on the 7 Star system. To-date I have been moderately successful in my quest and would like to convey that this forum through individuals like yourself and others have provided me with much useful insight. I am grateful. "

First and foremost, thank you for your open heart and mind in bring interesting and thoughtful discussion. I would like to thank you also for the compliment. I think the "modern mechanical descriptions" are developed out of the frustrations that the poetic names lends to liberal interpretations of movements and applications. Also there is a "insider" or "old boy's club" feel to it. Those who worked at the Ching Wu assoc. would have preferred to do away with it and bring forth a more academic environment. Indeed a noble move; however, not necessarily a wise move. There is a very fine line between a gentle triming of the root, which is health, and a heavy shaving that is hazzard to the health of the PM plant. Fortunately, Praying Mantis is a vibrant and diversed system. Nevertheless, 7 Stars masters did indeed bring a powerful and unique system of Kung Fu to the world. They really deserve the credit, IMHO.

"But I still have a long way to go. Once I read that "... we stand on a beach on an island in the midst of an illimitable oceon of the unknown, the task of each generation is to reclaim a little more sand...". I think this most clearly reflects my passion in studying 7 Star. Having learned so much 7 Star I am now on a quest to understand in full that which I have learned. "

Congratulations and welcome to the "Mantis Quest"

"I read that 7 Star Praying Mantis was named by it's founder after the constellation Ursa Major also known as the Big Dipper. The story continued that the founder of 7 Star named it so because he wanted this system to be known by as many people as could see this constellation. "

Incidently, social workers in HK are known as the Ursa Major as they points the way for those who are misfortune and bring direction to those who lose their way. In Chinese thoughts/mythology, Ursa Major is also consider the High Judge of mortality. Indeed a powerful symbol.

"It is a beautiful story and one that will not be possible unless we, the holders of the system, one generation at a time, continue to strive with exactitude for originality and authenticity."

If this is your asperations and indeed your undertaking, I salute you. I bid you a fair journey beyond just a fighter machine. Being human is the truth of martial arts.

"Well these are some of my thoughts on the matter of the legacies of past masters in modern times."

Very noble thoughts, my friend. Hope to hear more from you.

Regards

Mantis108