pm streetfighting

[bokfu]

Interesting theories here on this subject.... this is why I like this forum so much! Let me bring up a few points to ponder on the choke and punch post that GED inserted. I believe that his question was what should he do NOW that he is involved in MA training. He said this situation happened pre-training and now he has ability to defend himself but is concerned with damaging the attacker for life. Should he just open up and do damage with no concerns? Advanced martial artists rarely pull such a damaging technique in his arsenal...{What would you do in a case where the person may be a drunk acquaintence or maybe your girlfriend's brother who suddenly thought you deserved a serious beating? He is bigger and not thinking clearly and may just take your teeth out. You don't want to lose your teeth but yet do you really want to destroy his elbow?} Then there is the point that GED had nowhere to retreat to, right? He was instantly involved, so there was no option to run. Finally, many focus on damaging the elbow with the two forearms, which is a basic self defense technique in most systems. I have witnessed a choking/punching scenario many times with some former work I was involved with, and I can say that most of the time a person could not pull this self defense technique off. (Try this with a buddy). Step your left leg forward and apply a front choke with your left hand and pull your right arm back as if to punch. Notice if you have your left arm totally straight out and locked as most instructions teach. Now, without letting go of the choke, do a slow motion punch with your right. If you notice, this is a very difficult thing to do...mainly because it is very unnatural since to move your right shoulder forward to connect your punch your left has to come backward. Now, drop your left choking arm's elbow down slightly till it is between you and your buddy at solar plexus height (you will be slightly closer to your buddy). Now, try slow motion punches... you will find they are easier and are basically short, strong jabs. In reality, when I have witnessed this, the attacker is generally pushing backward the victim in a shuffling step forward using the back leg for power. The point I am making is this: when the elbow is lowered to that position, it is almost of no use to try to break it. Not being locked out keeps the serious pressure off and then you have no leverage. In my experience, the only time to consider using this defense is when somebody is holding one's shirts at the front, arm extended trying to keep a distance between. I suggest to look carefully at this technique and see what you gentlemen think. If you find that this technique is a little dicey to depend on as a one-shot solution, what other technique would you use and can you think of any that does not do serious damage such as broken joint, bone, or removal of an eye? Does anyone follow the thought of moving one's body as a defense without even using a hard strike or block? I can tell you this... in California, it is absolutely illegal to use martial arts unless you are seriously in trouble and fear for your life. The more advanced you are in the arts, the more the courts believe you should have passively controlled the attacker instead of using direct strikes. There are always friends of the attacker who will be witness to what you do in your own defense. A punch in a bar or at a dance does not merit certain defense techniques. It is a sad thing, but true.

[mantisben]

Thank you very much for your comments, Mantis108. I really appreciate them.

[mantisben]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bokfu
He said this situation happened pre-training and now he has ability to defend himself but is concerned with damaging the attacker for life. Should he just open up and do damage with no concerns? Advanced martial artists rarely pull such a damaging technique in his arsenal...

I got a confession to make: I am not an advanced Martial Artist (will I ever be?). In a combat situation, I need to get the attacker to stop attacking me as soon as possible.

{What would you do in a case where the person may be a drunk acquaintence or maybe your girlfriend's brother who suddenly thought you deserved a serious beating? He is bigger and not thinking clearly and may just take your teeth out. You don't want to lose your teeth but yet do you really want to destroy his elbow?}

If I think that he can hit me full-force in the face a couple of times, and I won't suffer any damage, then I won't hit back. I'll never hit anybody that can't hurt me. However, I'm not that advanced. If I get hit in the mouth, I'll bleed. If I get choked long enough, I'll pass out.

I saw a guy get knocked out in a streetfight, and his attacker kicked him in the head 'til he had amnesia. How do I know he had amnesia? The paramedics showed up and asked the guy his name, and he said "I don't know.". They asked him if he knew where he was at, and he said "I don't know.". This sounds like amnesia to me. I've never seen the guy again, so I don't know if it was temporary or permanent.

But back to your question: {...He is bigger and not thinking clearly and may just take your teeth out. You don't want to lose your teeth but yet do you really want to destroy his elbow?}

Yup. If I see the opportunity, and damaging his elbow will stop his aggression, I will. But mostly, I'm a striker. I'll try to hit him until he is unconsious or unable to retaliate, whichever comes first. I don't know how to attack the elbow to well, but after all this talk about damaging the elbow, I'll see if my PM forms contain techniques that attack it sufficiently. It may be more humane than my approach of beating him unconsious.

Then there is the point that GED had nowhere to retreat to, right?

I don't see anything in ged's post about "nowhere to retreat to." He WAS in a school dance, so there should have been plenty of room. Unless he fought in a locker-room.

Now, drop your left choking arm's elbow down slightly till it is between you and your buddy at solar plexus height...(snip)...The point I am making is this: when the elbow is lowered to that position, it is almost of no use to try to break it.
You are absolutely right! In reality, nobody chokes with their arms locked.

...what other technique would you use and can you think of any that does not do serious damage such as broken joint, bone, or removal of an eye?

In my first response to the "one-hand choke, other hand ready to strike" attack, I said the following:
use a finger-jab to one of his eyes. Use a pecking-type of motion, and you won't gouge the eye. Then nail him with a couple of weak right/left crosses to the nose, eye-brow, ear, and temple, if you can accuratley hit these targets. These targets don't take alot of force to hurt, so even with a weak-right, you should be able to hurt him. Still, whenever you throw a right-cross, throw it like your trying to make your fist come out the other side of his head.

I can tell you this... in California, it is absolutely illegal to use martial arts unless you are seriously in trouble and fear for your life.

If someone grabs you by the neck and is ready to punch you in the face you ARE in serious trouble and SHOULD fear for your life. Unless you're in a tournament of some kind.

The more advanced you are in the arts, the more the courts believe you should have passively controlled the attacker instead of using direct strikes.

I'm not advanced in the arts. I don't know if PM contains any "passively controlling" techniques. Maybe it does, but I haven't reached that advanced level yet. The PM techniques that I know are mostly quick and heavy strikes in different combinations.

There are always friends of the attacker who will be witness to what you do in your own defense.
Tell them to grab a beer and enjoy the show. If they're his friends, then they'll try to stop the fight. If not, then they either fear him, or don't mind watching you get grabbed by the neck and punched in the face.

A punch in a bar or at a dance does not merit certain defense techniques. It is a sad thing, but true.

I agree totally, fully, and absolutely. Still, in a street fight, defend yourself with the techniques you know will work. Experiment with new techniques during sparring sessions. Experiment with new techniques in a tournament if you don't mind risking a loss. But in a street fight, DON'T EXPERIMENT. You don't know if your opponent will stop hitting you when your arm or leg is broken. You don't know if he will stop hitting you if you're lying unconsious on the floor.

[ged]

thanks for clearing it up for me bokfu, just to reiterate - at the time i had no training - not sure if i was even aware of the difference between a roundhouse and a cross. my question was what are some techniques i could use now, after 1.5 years training.
Art D - wish it was that simple, but would it have been worth ****ing up his elbow, and more importantly, possible expulsion (my school was strict and stupid about fights) when there may have been a less permanent method of defense? the way i figure, cracked ribs and noses heal.

[Art D]

original post reads. I studied NPM for three years, since then i have never been in a brawl, only sparred with a couple well disciplined ma that i trusted could hold their own(so noone gets hurt too badly).

so many techniques in pm are designed to destroy an opponent, bone breaking being the most merciful with cavity and pressure point attacks coming very naturally, right?
now what if you got into a semi dangerous situation, but not necessarily a life threatening one?
would you feel comfortable that you could apply the appropriate amount of control without overdoing it and finding yourself in the courtroom later for using excessive force?

are alot of the pm techniques a little bit too viscious in todays society with today's laws?

the original post you never said anything about school yard fights! It asked about Semi dangerous situation. What is that ? is what I asked . Is possibile expulusion more fearful to you than posible death?

Again from my original post to the original ?

What is semi dangerous? I rember a story on the news not long ago of this kid , just about to graduate from high school , got killed ! one punch to his temple. I say its all dangerous! who knows whats going down. better to be tried by 12 than caried by 6. The ? is not excesive force ,it is did you stop when the attackt was defened and over or did you become the attaker at that point. Read the law, on the use of force and deadly force. we have the Fl statuese in my school for evryone to read. It's important to know your rights and those of others.

[BeiTangLang]

The technique I was thinking of uses the palms not the fore-arms.
If I said that earlier I appologize. Trust me though, bent arm or not, the palms work there _very_ well.
There are many techniques that work in this situation that I know of that are not listed, but that would take a long time to write them. There are also different things to do when up against a wall that work extreemly well.
Interesting conversation. Thanks to all that participated!
Best Wishes,
~BTL

[mantisben]

Originally posted by ged
just about the choking thing - at a school dance, a guy pushed me, i pushed back, he started choking me with 2 hands (i had bruises on my neck the next day) and screaming at me to punch him. at this point i had no training at all, and launched a weak right cross. he kept his left hand on my neck, drew back his right and punched me 3 times in the mouth, knocking 2 of my permanent teeth out. he was 2 years older than me.

I'm sorry you had to go through this situation, and I hope you never have to go through something like this again. Train hard, and do your best not to get into a fight.

[ged]

thanks mantisben, me too

sorry for the hijacking theneuhauser, but in my defense, its still related

[theneuhauser]

let the threads go where they will, i dont own it and im not a "stay on topic" kind of guy either.

i want to address something that has not been mentioned yet in everyone's applications.

getting choked hurts. a one handed choke is applied to your esophagus, it only takes a second and some decent pressure to collapse the windpipe, you can continue choking and die after the assailant's grip is released.
now why the heck would you attack the choking arm sideways? 2 things can happen-1-you might not apply the strike strongly or accurately(being choked doesnt necessarily increase your skills you know) and the result is you are still getting choked or -2- you might strike the opponents choke arm hard enough that your neck tries to come off with his hand putting you in a world of hurt.

try this folks, tell me how you like it.
take your outside arm and drop it across the choking arm's elbow, press down. two things can and will happen here-1-the elbow gets lowered to the point where the pressure exerted on your throat all but dissappears-2-you bring him in so close that his free hand will have a hard time executing any decent punches and now your legs are close enough to go to town with some really good low kicks.
thats the first step. now try crashing the clavicle on the choke arm with your free hand to disable the arm, slide the freehand down the choke arm, switch your grip to that hand and you can quickly follow with a chop to the adam's apple, and you can even slide that hand back down his arm to free that inside hand back up and attack the other collar bone(largely unnecessary at this point but the action is so fast).
anyhow, the most important part here is to control the choke arm by placing your weight on top of that elbow in order to save your neck, and then the rest is optional.