7 Star: Exits Cave & Steals Peach

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
Ursa,

I do believe that experimenting with different ways to apply a technique is very healthy and actually the only way to make the style your own. I think is equally important to understand what the original intent of the technique should be. I don't doubt that your variations to the opening of "Sup Baht Sao" can be very effective for you and I can very easily understand your applications from your clear descriptions, but I have always found the hammer strike to be using the fist and not the forearm. I simply do not believe the forearm strike would have more hitting power than the hammer fist. I also disagree that hitting the targets you mentioned would require a "blunter" object.

With every weapon, when you swing it, the point with most power will be the end. Like swinging a staff, the very end of the staff will have the most power. With a soft weapon like a whip, the most impact will come at the end of the whip. The same goes for the arm and hammer strike. I feel I will always generate more impact power at the fist than my forearm. I only use forearms for the sweeping blocks and for applying arm bars or elbow breaks.

Going back to "Sup Baht Sao", when I learned the "Ling" or 2-man form, the hammer strike was a hammer fist to the head which if blocked leads to the next "foong sao toong chui" - grab, pull and punch sequence.

Again, not to say that experimenting with different targets and methods of striking is wrong, but I believe this to be the original intent of the form.

YM

Hello Young Mantis and thank-you for your comments. Also, I appreciate your sig with the "WHF Lineage Practitioner". As of recent I have been using his books to correct some of my forms -- a most rewarding experience. Does his Sup Baht Sao book mention striking with the hammer fist then ? (I read the pics and not the words unfortunately).

I hope you do not exclude the fore-arm in your hammer strike, that you will continue to explore it as time permits. You make a good point about the pendulum or centripetal effect with the hammer fist vs. the hammer fore-arm and I agree that when velocity is important you can generate more, perhaps much more velocity using the fist.

But some targets are, to my mind, better suited to the fore-arm. For instance attacking the bicep at the elbow joint, this is a tricky target to strike and requires a hard tool for maximum effect. The
fore-arm using the 'kal' or lower fore-arm bone works very well for this. Also I get closer using the fore-arm. There are other examples as well using the fore-arm in each case it is a heavy strike where power is increased by earthing the limb. You might call it a trade-off velocity vs. gravity ? Fundamentally I think the targets are different between hammer fore-arm and hammer fist and have no arguments with the use of either.

Your point is made however -- I will practice the form with hammer fist in mind.

thx, UM.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantisben
When executing a forearm strike, I don't think you throw the forearm as if you are throwing the Hammer-Fist. I think the body mechanics between throwing a Hammer-Fist and a Forearm strike are different.

Hello mantisben,

I agree when I practice these two variations the setup and execution are quite different. As I stated in an earlier post so are the targets. After practicing the hammer fist I find it uniquely suited for targets I would otherwise have avoided due to the awkwardness of trying to apply the fore-arm strike (eg: temple strike). In future I will be altering my training habits.

thx mantisben and YoungMantis,
UM.

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by mantisben
I think it'll lead into a "Toong Chui" even if the hammer-fist lands right on the button.

Ahh, yes but if I have successfully used my diu sau to intercept one of my opponent's hands and while maintaining that control am able to deliver a right hammerfist strike, I would not release his wrist to execute a "toong chui" with my left hand without controlling a different limb. If the hammerfist were blocked, I would use my right hand to then control his blocking hand and then release the left to punch. This way I still control one of his limbs. But that's ok, this is just a matter of fighting style. I like the control. If I land the hammerfist on the button and still have control of one of his arms, it would go into a different technique and stray from the "Sup Baht Sao" sequence.


2-Man Sup Baht Sao? I'll bet that's alot of fun!

All the 2-man forms or "Ling Forms" are a lot of fun and really teach the essence of the forms and the PM style. It is one of the unique characteristics of our style and after learning each one, has increased my understanding of many other techniques in the other forms.

YM

[Hau Tien]

I don't know Sup Baht Sao yet (I'm not sure at what point our Sifu teaches it), but on the issue of using a forearm to hammer strike, we were shown both. Simply a different range of fighting. Also, using the forearm on the hammer strike (such as in Sap Sei Lo #3) can allow you to change the movement from being a strike into a throw, depending on the circumstances.

That's just one example, of course... I think it's more a question of what range/angle you're fighting in than anything else.

Just my opinion

[Ye Gor]

Well said, Hau Tien. I'd like to add that there are also 'soft' targets against which a forearam strike is plenty good. It's all a matter of the situation and adapting to it.

[yu shan]

YM

In your training, is there always taught "the" two-person to your Mantis forms? Not just some, but all?

[ursa major]

Originally posted by yu shan
YM

In your training, is there always taught "the" two-person to your Mantis forms? Not just some, but all?

Hello yu shan,

I cannot answer for Young Mantis but when I was taught the forms it was assumed that there was an opposite fighting form for every form even though we may not know them. The only ones (two-man fighting forms) I know of are Crushing Step and Piercing Fist.

I was told that once upon a time many of the original forms had formal two-man fighting sets. I wish I had these as from those I have seen I know they provide tremendous insight to the forms and their authors.

Also, as an experiment and lesson in learning I have tried creating my own two-man fighting set for PF Falling Leaf. I highly recommend this excercise I found it to be very fruitful in terms of learning and insight.

thx,
UM.

[mantisben]

I've seen 2-man Daw Ghong, and I know someone that knows the 7* White Ape Steals The Peach 2-man set. I've seen 2 different versions of the Bung Bo 2-man set.

I know that in the magazine "Kung-Fu QiGong (May/June & July/Aug of 2001)" issue they have the 2-man Piercing Fist performed by Sifu Jon Funk.

[Young Mantis]

Yu Shan,

As Ursa points out, I too have been told that all of the authentic NPM forms have 2-man or "Ling" versions. Our website lists the ones we teach.

The "Ling" forms are indeed a very unique and crucial component of the NPM system. I believe they teach the original intention of each movement in a form. They also show more preciesly the entire flavor or flow of each form. For the "ling" side, it also teaches possible counters or escapes for the movements in the form. Many of the techniques in the "ling" form were no where near what I first thought the application was when I learned the solo form. Each one has been truly enlightening.

YM

[nathan chukueke]

There are no secrets only creative study and research. In general, most teacher don't teach you what they don't think you would be interested, need to know or does not interest themsleves.

In this case read Chinese classical novel: Journey to The West and maybe Diamond Sutra. I am talking about phrases like (steals the peach=spirit of the monkey king).

Four Forms related to Journey to The West

White ape exits the cave.
White ape worship the North Star.
White ape secretly watch the banquet.
White ape steals the peach.

These four forms compress about a quarter Journey to The West, with reference to textual content, i.e. storyline.

White forms some of the oldest in Northern Mantis in general. The concepts of these forms predate 7 Star Mantis.

White Ape has monkey leg such as kneeling moves and maybe dei tong/ground moves. White Ape are also known for its wide radius arm and fist movements.

Steals the Peach=Issue is where Monkey King has a problem in Heaven. He gets mad, and tries to steal peach of immortality. On a basic level, the peach represents is ones sexual organs located between your legs. This stealing attack would hurt ones chi and thus impede ones longevity (read Taoist Yoga/ Charles Luk). Here is where we get into the whole discussion of lethal points in the human body and the flow of chi.

Mantis steals the peach is a more important mantis form, if you learn the right versions some say.

Om Peace

Nathan Chukueke
Administrator
Northern Shaolin 7 Star Pray Mantis Association
Under Chi Luen

[ursa major]

Originally posted by nathan chukueke
Four Forms related to Journey to The West

White ape exits the cave.
White ape worship the North Star.
White ape secretly watch the banquet.
White ape steals the peach.

These four forms compress about a quarter Journey to The West, with reference to textual content, i.e. storyline.

White forms some of the oldest in Northern Mantis in general. The concepts of these forms predate 7 Star Mantis.

White Ape has monkey leg such as kneeling moves and maybe dei tong/ground moves. White Ape are also known for its wide radius arm and fist movements.

Steals the Peach=Issue is where Monkey King has a problem in Heaven. He gets mad, and tries to steal peach of immortality. On a basic level, the peach represents is ones sexual organs located between your legs. This stealing attack would hurt ones chi and thus impede ones longevity (read Taoist Yoga/ Charles Luk). Here is where we get into the whole discussion of lethal points in the human body and the flow of chi.

Mantis steals the peach is a more important mantis form, if you learn the right versions some say.

Thank-you for your commentary nathan chukueke. This is another very interesting and appreciated insight into this obscure subject.

IMHO I would be hard pressed to say Mantis Steals Peach is more important than White Ape Steals Peach. Having learned, practiced and studied both of these forms I can say with certitude that my PM is the richer as a result. I believe they each offer a unique and special component of and to 7 Star.

thx,
UM.

[Tainan Mantis]

Nathan,
Thanks for the informative post.
What aspects of White Ape do you suspect predate 7* PM?

[nathan chukueke]

If you go to the northern shoalin forum I am sure they can tell you a lot more about white ape than I can. That being said, those of us who are crazy about detail, use the following concepts:

Arms
1. White ape gives mantis a downward sloping or arching movement as the punch in many moves. Part of the idea being, that opponent’s arms are targets well as his body is a striking points even if you miss his body. Moreover, this arching strike can to done over and under your opponents arms, using the concepts of open and close movement positions. My gung fu brother Carl Albright has nicely touched on this concept of open and closed positions.

2. The white ape arms are also important on the point of rolling strikes. With the white ape favor added to mantis movements like the 18 palm strikes can be done in a very strong, with the proper chi development, but flowing manner. This wheel like action is also less stressful on ones joints. Which can be a problem in northern mantis training.

3. The white ape energy skill enhances ones later deliver of movement phrase in the system if learned well manner. If one does not learn about such things from ones teacher, practice and insight may show you equally interesting energy patterns, as the designs of these forms must have found from long training.

Mantis coming out of the cave is somewhat more linear in energy, and is more focused on development on some concepts in combinations that only become important in later forms in the system (opinion).

Perhaps someone other than me would like to speak about ape/monkey legs.

Nathan Chukueke

om peace

[seung ga faat]

Thanks, Nathan for your enlightened response.
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