seminars

[madmanits]

This past weekend I was at a seminar . This was the first Kung Fu seminar that I have been to. I didn't know what quite to expect. We did some push hand drills. And evading drills. The seminar was very affordable at $50. For myself the seminar provided an oppertunity to see a different perspective on mantis fighting. The intent of this post is to find out what pmp have experinces at seminars what kind of drills were down and how they felt about their experince.

[Frogman]

Well I’m glad I didn’t spend the money to fly up and join in the fun. I once had an opportunity to partake in a seminar in BJJ given by Rickon Gracie, it was only $75.00 but I had just started BJJ so didn't feel that I would have gotten anything out of it and passed. In one of my other styles, I won’t say what the seminars cost, but they were not much more then a four hour intense work out and all I have to show now the revelation that “You can’t break a sponge with a punch, but you can cut it with a knife.” Um…ok??
Since I’ve been in TCKF I have taken a few seminars and was taught complete forms. This to me was well worth the time and money. The thing I like most is the forms were outside of the curriculum of the particular style I am training in. In fact I just learned a Plum Flower form, from what I understand it is one of the beginning forms in PFPM, called Jer Liu. This is exciting for me even if it is not a high level super form I got a chance to be exposed to something different. So I can relate with what your saying but can tell you not to be discouraged from taken seminars in the future. It may be a good idea to ask about what you can expect to learn before you sign up. If you have a chance to learn something your not going to learn in your regular class go for.

fm
RibHit

[BeiTangLang]

Yes,...you may have learned more new things from training with your Sifu, I will not dispute that. However, you need to evaluate other things as well: Did you know how other people moved or did their drills before the seminar? Even if you did not like what you learned, you _did_ learn how you do not like to train a specific drill. Also, anylize what about it you did or did not like. Write these things down in a notebook for later in your career when you just may look at them again & go" Ah,..I see what he meant by that" or, "I still don't like that drill". Either way, you learned it. $50 for a seminar too much?? What is the price of knowledge?
Best Wishes,
~BTL

[tanglangbaji]

I have been to many seminars, and hosted several over my 11 1/2 years in the martial arts, and here are a few of my observations.
1) If you think $50 is too much, think about this. My father is a DVM (dr. Vet. Medicine). He recently attended a intensive week long seminar on dental surgery. The seminar cost several thousand, and the equipment when he got back cost around four times as much. I asked him if he thought his money was spent wisely on this. He said he learned more than he could have asked for! Since this seminar over the summer he has made ALL his money back and then some. We martial artists often forget that the people we support at seminars, or even our own teachers are for the most part "professionals" in their field. Martial arts have traditionaly been looked down upon by norm society as a common mans practice, or what poor people do to kill time. I do not agree with either. These men and women are sharing years of trained, disciplined knowledge with us. $50 bucks (Canadian????) for four hours is nothing! Now whether or not you feel it was worth it........
2) Seminars are tricky when it comes to someone teaching them. But I think if you learned one new thing then the money and time was well spent. We cannot always blame the teacher for what we picked up. Your learning style, maturity, knowledge base, and how much you practice are all factors in how much you will retain. I for instance can learn a whole form in a few hours. But then I go right home and go over it until I am sick of it! Constant repetition. But I learn quickly too. I think it is wise to evaluate who is teaching what, and if you will have enough time to learn something in a short amount of time. It sounds like this was a real general seminar that just covered some aspects of mantis.
We must always be mindful of our strengths and weakness'. Afterall that is what the martial arts are really about, self guidance, self improvement, and most importantly self honesty! Learn from your experiences and mistakes! I like what the others have posted, write down what was good and bad. Analyze, analyze, analyze! Hope I helped more than hurt.

[woliveri]

tanglangbaji,
I don't think there is any way you can possibly equate a Western DVM with MA. The two are entirely different in that the producers of the DVM Seminar have worked hard to create the product and techniques they are selling. They are proud of their work and are happy to release it to those willing to pay for it. They are also not afraid to explain their techniques ad nausium to the interested party. On the other hand, In the CMA and TCM arena there are still many, many who hide their techniques and keep secret their skills. I was speaking to a Doctor of Chinese Medicine just this week and we were talking about a TCM school in the area which he attended. He was certian that the teachers were teaching the minimum or just above to get the student to pass their state exams. And he was Chinese. After graduating from this school this doctor went to Taiwan to a friend to really learn. The instructors, to which these students have intrusted their faith that they are being taught the best of their ability are being given the short end of the stick. I have seen this in the MA and Qi Gong as well.

I have seen very, very few MA/Qi Gong instructors give willingly and freely.

[Dachengdao]

Greetings KFO friends!
Thanks to Madmantis for starting this interesting thread. Frogman and Tanglang gave some good advice for getting the most for your money and BeiTang is right - What price is Knowledge? Woliveri is equally correct about Masters not teaching real kungfu. As a master who conducts workshops and seminars myself, I thought you guys might like to hear form the "other side".
I've only been in the US for less than two years. What a culture shock to see how masters are treated here (or rather mistreated)! And what a greater shock to see how some so-called masters manipulate their students and take them for every cent they can get from them without giving them anything substantial in return. I tried to maintain my traditional ways of teaching, but I went broke pretty fast. Seminars, workshops, private lessons, selling videos - all of these are western buisiness tactics that I have recently adopted just to be able to pay the rent. I see some of my peers "living large" and I wonder why people are paying them so much money when their kungfu is only so-so. Then I see others who have very good kungfu, but are living near poverty because they have no sense of western business tactics.
In China, a master only has to worry about teaching kungfu. Students and even the community (if you come from a small village as I did) take care of the daily needs. Students revere their master and treat him with the utmost respect. A master never is allowed to pick up the tab in a resturant, and a student never visits the master empty-handed. No one speaks while the master is speaking, and students always show humility and gratitude.
As much as I disdain "business kungfu", where a master takes a student for a ride without giving real kungfu, or only giving the bare minimum, I understand the frustration of giving my heart and soul to certain students who are actually studying with a "brand name" master and are using me to gain a higher position with their other master, or to hone their skills for competitions which they usually win or place and give me no credit;or to certain students that don't appreciate the real meaning of kungfu as self defense and health enhancer. I've been burned a few times, but I just choose to go forward and not hold against everyone what a few bad apples have done. Some masters can't get past that.
My advice is to do your homework before taking a seminar or class. Sometimes a seminar or workshop is a good way to try out the master before committing to taking classes or private lessons. Ask around, go in person to visit the master's school, talk to students, or better yet - ask right here on the KFO forums.
I send out my thanks to Tanglangbaji who's setting up a seminar for me Nov 2 & 3 in New Mexico.
I also have a question for Frogman - who's your plum blossom teacher and where is he located? Tell me what you know of his lineage - maybe I know him or his teacher.

[yu shan]

Dachengdao

Can you share what we are to espect with your seminar in November? Please be specific.

[Skarbromantis]

Dachengdao- Very good post, thank you for sharing that, many nights I have gone over the same thoughts, myself I am no ware near close to being able to teach, but when I think about the future, one day I would like to teach what I have learned, will I be able to do it full time and support myself, with out, as I call it "selling out" to western business tactics, kids class, belt ranks, tapes and seminars, my love of the art is too deep to make a profit from it, and good student are hard to find, anyways it was refreshing to hear your point of view, thank you again.

Skard1

[woliveri]

Dachengdao,
I must complement you on your English for the short period of being in the US. I hope my Chinese will be as good one day.

[Dachengdao]

Thank you to Skabro and Woliveri for the kind comments! To Yu Shan, thanks for asking about my seminar. It is a Dachengquan Seminar. Day 1 is an overview of this little known art which is new to America (I am the lineage holder, inherited from Wang Xianzhai by Wang XuanJie,who was my teacher). We will study and practice standing postures, walking postures, breathing, vocalizations, self-defense and health applications. Day 2 will be Push Hands where participants can test what they have learned the previous day as well as their cumulative martial arts experiences. For more information, take a look at Tanglangbaji's thread "Dachengquan Seminar" in the Internal Arts Forum. I would just like to emphasize that Dachengquan can be studied not only alone, but also in conjunction with any other style. I used it to enhance my mantis (I am also lineage holder of the Hao Family Northern Plum Blossom). Dachengquan is similar to Yiquan, which is better known here. I wrote a few threads on Dachengquan, also in the Internal Arts forum section if you care to look at them to see what it's all about. I welcome any comments or questions you may have.

[Ye Gor]

Dachengdao, I feel compelled to go one step further than wolivery and simply express AMAZEMENT at the quality of your written English. It's easily the best on the whole of KFO forums. Less than 2 years in US and you came from a small village in China? I understand it is in bad taste to question a master, but just can not help it, please forgive me... what is your secret? Did you spend several years in England or something like that?

[BeiTangLang]

K guys,...a compliment or two is fine, but you are getting away from the thread topic. PM the guy for further compliments & such.
Thank you for your cooperation;
~BTL

[mantis108]

Personally, I don't feel that seminars, videos and all the business things mean selling out. Not when it is done with care, effort and details. The only sell out is when the producer(s) is/are knowingly attempt to hide the real thing or lack thereof. I think seminars are like little programs or little lessons that you put together to best represent or best showcase your style or yourself. The same is with videos. So if you are really going to do a seminar or a video, you must let peolpe get the little lessons that you intended to teach. That way the audience, who would be potential students, leave with something which they have paid for. We can argued that it's art, therefore, we can't put a price tag on art. But we also have to remember that Kung Fu is also science. If there are school (even universities) out there that can sell you education (both art and science disciplines), there is no excuse for Kung Fu not to do the same. If the master is not prepare to "give" out stuff, then he should just not do it at all, period! All I am saying is good business is about honest merchants, who has the duty of care, and wise consumers who stand up for their own rights. Anytime you have an inbalance you will have bad deal, which I will not want to be part of. If we don't understand this, the quality of Kung Fu product out there will always be less than ideal. I think we need to "educate" the masters on this as well (as the promoters). That's the only way you will get quality stuff. It is not just to sell a bad bill of goods, nor is it just to suffer in silence that being sold one.

Mantis108

[Frogman]

Cultural differences I’m sure are a big factor. Respect is shown in a different manner here then in China, no doubt. If someone is training in CMA they will have to learn a little bit about Chinese culture since they are so deeply connected, but at the end of the day we’re still in the US. I have a great deal of respect for my Sifu and SiGung and appreciate the opportunity to learn the art. I feel I am fortune to have a good Sifu, I have learned from several instructors in varies styles and can tell you finding a good teacher can be harder then finding a good student. There are a lot of MA schools in the phone book and you don’t always get what you pay for.
As for the Plum Flower question I will have to follow up and get back with you. I am looking forward to hearing your input.


RibHit
fm

[Dachengdao]

Good posts, guys! Two questions:
First to Mantis 108 - The only way to educate bad masters is to stop the money that's coming in; the only way to stop the money coming in is to educate the student. How can students know when they're being ripped off?
Next to Frogman - Cultural differences make for a wide gap; who's responsible for forging the bridge to cross that gap - the master or the student? The Chinese master would say the student should be the one to accommodate him out of respect. The American student would say he's paying good money to the master, so if the master wants to continue to get paid then he needs to assimilate. Assuming both are equally correct in their point-of-view from a cultural stand point, how do we reconcile these fundamental differences?