A Chen and Yang style Analysis

[wushu chik]

Check yer PM

~Wen~

[josh_f]

For those interested, Yang Lu-chan's biography from the official Yang family website:

http://www.yangstyletaichi.com/Home/...l_history.html

One would hope that the words of the family members will finally put this to rest . Of course I doubt that it will.

What I find more suspect than Erle's history is the following from [url]http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/disrupt.html[\url]

"These forms not only teach us about self-defence and healing, they also teach us about ?qi disruption?. This exciting area deals with disrupting an attacker?s energy flows to cause that person to become very weak when they attempt to re-attack us. It involves brushing the hand or hands very quickly to the point of fa-jing over certain areas of the body. (Each form uses a different area to cause different Qi disruptions to occur). This will cause a magnetic field to be set up across the attacker?s own ?electrical? pathways thus causing an adverse current to be set up along that pathway. This is only a min. ute current as that is the way the human body works. If we were for instance to use much higher currents from an external unnatural source, it would not have any effect other than to electrocute the person! We are able to cause an attacker not to be able to punch us because when he tries, his body is drained of Qi very quickly. We are able to affect for instance the ?awaking energy?, which is that energy that causes us to wake up. When we do the reverse, we cause the person to want to be asleep.

All of this is scientific and much of it has had scientific experiments done on it to prove its veracity. I too have done experiments in my own meagre way which also uphold this theory."

I'd would be interested in seeing some double-blind peer review studies that verified the existance of "chi", "awaking energy" or "any human with the ability to generate a magnetic field strong enough to disrupt another human ( those who have used a magnets before might wonder why the field doesn't disrupt the electrical pathways of the person generating the field). I suspect that Mr. Montaigue is a little fuzzy on what constitutes science.
. Those have not done so, I highly recomend reading the form descriptions. , They are highly entertaining.


--josh

[GLW]

I love the short statement "Born in a poor family, when he was 10, he went to Chenjiagon in Henan province to learn Tai Chi from the famous master Chen Shing Xing (1771-1853). "

At that time, one did not come from a poor family, go to Chenjiagou, and be accepted as a student - carte blanche.

While this is essentially correct, the full story (from older - pre-PRC times history documents) was that as was the custom, Yang was 'sold' by his family as a servant to the Chen family.

This was a common practice. It got money for a poor family and insured that their child would have a job, food, clothing, and shelter. About the only downside was that as an indentured servant, the money the family received was more of a loan. If the child wanted to leave and go elsewhere, they had to payback that money or the person holding the loan had to determine that the debt was forgiven.

However, this was not done very often - where would a person go and what would they do? Being a servant for a rich family beat being on the street.

This aspect of the history is played down a lot because no Chinese family wants to own up to the major ancestor that makes their family special being a servant.

[gazza99]

Welcome to the Forum Josh I see this is your first post! Thanks for taking the time out of your busy political agenda to post an off topic comment! Its typical to start a new thread when you change subjects, keep in mind this topic has come up before, so Its easier to do a search for it. But then again that might not fit your agenda?

For the record when you put quotations on something *pretending* to *quote* them, it is comman practice not to add your own comments or question marks to that persons quote, once you do so it eliminates your credibility, and easily predjudices the following opinions.

I am also skeptical about the qi-disruption claims put out by my instructor, It may have some merit, it may be complete B.S. But to me after learning the forms its a moot point and here is why. Ill break it down....

1. The qi-disruption is a set-up for a strike, in most case the "qi-disruption" is done within a blocking/striking motion. learning all of the forms I was never once taught the methods are stand-alone techniques.

2. Since its done in the same motion it does not matter if it works or not, the method will still end the fight.

3. The forms are 99% real techniques bearing qualities from all the three sisters, they are 1% qi-disruption method. So if you think its complete BS so what? Look at many other forms and see if you can find such a good quality to B.S ratio of 99/1

regards,
Gary

Ps: Now lets get back on topic, respond to me via PM if you like, or start a new thread, or resurect an old one......

[RAF]

GLW:

King of Masks

Great film, makes your point.

Later.

[josh_f]

Gazza99,
First off I'm hardly new to this forum, I posted quite a bit over the years. You may still be able to find some of the posts I made regarding use of the Dantien and the differences between internal and external arts. Unfortunately after an eighteen-month hiatus my account was deleted, and therefore I've created a new account. Suggesting I search for the topic because it has come up before, in a topic that appears every four months like clockwork for last seven years. (Yes, I started posting in this forum before kungfu magazine bought it.) is pretty funny.
Regarding being off topic:
The quote was from a link in the first post of this thread. I would think that would make discussions regarding it on-topic.
Regarding the quote, I don't know what you mean by pretend to quote I cut and pasted that text as is from http://www.taijiworld.com/ . The question marks are unintended **** up on my part. If you read the original as I suggested in my original post. It would have been clear that the ?'s are the What editorial meaning did you draw from ' attacker?s'. Still I apologize to Earle for any misunderstanding caused by said character substitution.

[josh_f]

GLW,
I don't blame the Yang's for omitting the fact that Yang Lu-chan was an indentured servant. Although I did always like the story of why he was given his freedom. I should point out that although I've heard this from several sources this a Chenjigan story, and probable not true. The story goes that when Yang's master got older he becamed worried that he would die and Yang Lu Chan would be left alone with his wife and daughters. He therefore gave Yang Lu-chan. his freedom and sent him off to Beijing.
The only problem I really have with this official biography is that it makes it seem as though he left Chenjigan and became Yang "the invincible". When in fact his first trip out he lost a couple of fights and decided to return to chen village where he trained for a several more years. He also returned to Chenjiago some time after he established himself in Beijing although I'm unsure if this was a social trip or training trip.
I wanted to write something regarding your list of core taiji elements (which I think are really core neijia elements), but perhaps I'll just create a new topic so as not to offend anyone.
--josh

[gazza99]

Ok, sorry man, I didnt see the link to that arcticle in the first post! I also didnt see Dre tie it in, but nonetheless sorry for the off topic comment, what I meant by *pretending* to *quote* was simply the question mark insertion which definately makes ERle seem uncertain, and there renders it not an actual quote.
I have been here at least a year, and dont remember your name? Did you have another nick?

regards,
Gary

[dre_doggX]

No I dont think Iam barking up the wrong tree, this is a discussion board, I havent decided in my mind completely wether the conculsion by Elre my be half-true or false, but I didnt know, so I thought that if I couldnt figure it out maybe you guys could tell me your opinons after looking at the object and tell me from your view, after all we all cant see the same thing from the same angle, but what we all see IS REAL just the same, wether it is true or false, will, Iam not sure thats why I wanted people to go to www.taijiworld.com look at reflex violence book, and just his stuff and tell what you think, because I am not completely sure and I believe your educated opinons will help me alot.


thank you.

[gazza99]

You dont seem to be overly intelligent, or you are simply very young, your not getting my point. Even the chinese dont agree on whats the most original form, they distort their own history, its a useless point. Just train for god sakes, you dont have to just do Erles stuff, look at everything you can and decide what you like best and falls inline most with the PRINCIPLES.... since you obcviously need repitition let me re-post my comments, you didnt really address the points of my comments (you only validated my point about you wondering if Erles form was the most original, which is an endless arguement) , just think about it for awhile, and take other peoples advice, we are all basically saying the same thing.

... Discussions of "whats the original taiji" is simply circular: myth, on top of exageration, on top of time and distorted history. Mr. DreDog simply didnt ask his question the right way, or for some reason is seeking validation that Erles old yang form is the best and the most original...

Dre: Youre barking up the wrong tree, you should be addressing principles, not history for answers. If you like what your doing great, I like Erles old yang, so I do it! The best comparison is if someone is proficient in both chen and Yang styles that can compare the different methods, postures, jin expressions and cultivation..etc.. Look over GLW's post, things that should transcend taiji styles is what we can focus on here, and if something differs, why? why? and why

[Stacey]

hate to make blanket statements but

tai chi is tai chi


The public forms are different and people that don't know better conjure up all sorts of weird applications based on their shallow knowlege of it, regardless of years or masters they have trained with.

The "advanced" sets are chen style all the way, archaic, less flowy and all about fighting and working the hell out of your legs.

Yang is chen....for rich people.

Its like Tae Bo if thai bo's advanced levels were muay thai. I don't really care where people put their hand and what mid level teacher proclaim that their single whip creates more chi flow. Its all a means to a beggining.



as for chen style for being internal. This is one of the stupidest thing's I've ever heard. Yang tai chi is like a trickling fountain, advanced yang or chen (they merge, I promise) is like a fire hose.

I think Erle Montigue, with all due respect has been giving answeres to things he doesn't know, then after a while believes himself and then writes it down.

[Shadow Dragon]

Hate to do so, but to a degree I have to agree with stacey.


Good Yang Tai Chi and good Chen Tai Chi should look and feel the same.

Cheers.

[taijiquan_student]

Do you even practice taijiquan, Stacey?

You're joking about Yang style's inferiority, right?

[josh_f]

Gaza99,
I'm having problems with the new character limit on posts. Normally I write my posts in open office and then cut and paste it into the forum. The character limit seems to be screwing up my posts. The sentence regarding those blasted ?'s should have read: "If you read the original as I suggested in my original post. It would have been clear that the ?'s are the forum software substituting <?> for <'>. Regarding my old account it was always josh_f, but I've been taking a break from posting here for 18 months, which means none of my posts show up in the archive. Which is too bad as I spent a lot of time on couple of page long explainations on the mechanics of the dantien. I'd expect Fu-pow would remember me as would some of the other old timers-- not that matters. Let's forget this misunderstanding. I'll drop chi disruption thread. There will be plenty of future topics on which we can disagree .

josh

[GLW]

Josh,

the version you present is an oversimplification.

Being an indentured servant to a good master was not that bad of a deal. The Chen family definitely treated their servants well by all accounts. There are records indicating that they taught exercises based upon their family art...but not martial in flavor - to their servants to promote health. After all, a healthy and happy servant serve you better.

This aspect of Chen life may have lead Yang to begin the process of softening his art.

Also, if a master was kind, it would not be uncommon for them to allow a servant to go visit their mother or something...so this is not too far off either.

At the time, fear of a dalliance between Yang Luchan and the wife was not really the issue. It was actually more one of proprieties. A widow did NOT have ANY male servants. It simply was improper.

The option would be to transfer the debt to another family member or forgive it. Then elder Chen seems to have chosen to forgive the debt...not that uncommon either.

Yang was also set up working with an herbal shop. Some try to imply that he knew Chinese Medicine. This is not really the case. As a poor person and as a servant, he would NOT have been able to read so prescriptions would have been out of his realm. Since his grandsone (Yang Chengfu) was known to be illiterate, it is safe to say that YLC and his sons were as well. Being able to read and write...in a Chinese family, once learned, this knowledge is prized and passed down to the sons.

YLC was more of a worker...measuring amounts, talking with customers, delivering herbs, preparing herbs...grinding and such. He did this for a time until moving on. Not a bad deal to get started and then build up money and reputation.

The information I had was that the herb shop was owned by the chen family so returning to train and keeping contact with your Kung Fu brothers, uncles, etc... is also in keeping with tradition.

So, it is really not that unlikely...it just requires a person to know a bit about how life worked then and the choronology of events.

Of course the Yang family would prefer if everyone thought that YLC went to Chenjiagou and became a servant so he could learn...it makes the family feel better.

From a western point of view...an accurate story is better...and rags to riches is not a bad thing either.