Would you ever say that you're good?

[anerlich]

Originally posted by red5angel
MP- I would say this, while I agree with you for the most part, I think that learning/training the arts can build character, it can also create monsters.

Arguably there is evidence for that on this forum, and this thread.

[anerlich]

Martial arts should build character.

Martial arts should require Martial Virtue

I agree that it SHOULD.

It doesn't follow from that that it WILL.

What worries me is that some seem to feel that turning up to class and working out will necessarily turn you into a paragon of virtue. It ain't that easy. Arguably IMHO the MA training is incidental to the character building.

[Merryprankster]

Anerlich,

More or less what you said. There's nothing wrong with teaching a little self-restraint in a class designed to teach you how to hurt people.

But, and I think I pointed it out earlier, there's nothing unique to MA's about character building. People like to think there is, but there isn't.

[canglong]

Just like to acknowledge that the post from Spectre and Nuerotic were very well written IMO.

MerryPrankster ---- when you introduced the word unique I think that may be the sticking point in this argument. No, MA are not exclusive holders of the path to good character only one of many but surely it can be seen as one of the many.

[couch]

I don't think that I'd ever say "I'm good" ...rather "I'm scared sh*tless..."

I don't think I'll ever be able to say that I'm good, or the best or something.

Every day, I strive for perfection within myself, within Wing Chun. I struggle so much, and like everyone says:
The more I learn, the more I realize what I have to learn.

Honestly, I get scared about the amount of time and effort needed to reach my goals...but A Journey Of A Thousand Li Begins With A Single Step.

[AndrewS]

Merry,

I disagree with you about the uniqueness of martial arts in character building.

One element of character is the ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes- empathy.

Train hard and honestly, and you will have had direct experience of another's pain.

You also tend to meet a lot of folks you wouldn't otherwise, and hopefully develop a deep level of trust and friendship with them.

FWIW,

Andrew

[Merryprankster]

Unique was probably overstating the case.

However...

You can gain the same empathy in football, track or any other physical endeavor where exhaustion, pain, luck and training come into play.

You can also gain it in chorus, the musical, a play, etc.

Any activity with the potential for public humiliation, loss and some sort of mental or physical anguish builds empathy. I did an awful lot of activities as a teen and let me tell you that you learn a lot more empathy doing a solo in front of 50 people than you ever do in an MA. Doing a form for demonstration or anything of that nature doesn't BEGIN to compare to that, IMO.

You also form the same tight bonds with the people you do those activities with...and you meet a lot of people you wouldn't have met at different events all over the place. And you hook up with some of them. Especially at All-State Chorus...

The purpose of MA is not to build character. It's to learn to handle yourself in a confrontation. Part of that is learning to defuse things as best you can, which means there needs to be some component that downplays the need/desire to beat the crap out of somebody. But that's not necessarily "character building." It could just be seen as enlightened self interest.

[crumpet]

The purpose of MA is not to build character. It's to learn to handle yourself in a confrontation.

geez it really seems you're totally against the idea that martial arts strengthens your character. obviously it doesn't for you, but many people have stated that it does for them. so why are you trying to tell them otherwise? martial arts is a part of some people's lives. a VERY important part, and it may be part of their identity. to state that it's NOT a character builder is quite hurtful to who they know themselves as.

if you're tired of other's enforcing their views upon you, and that's why you do it in turn to them... maybe you should realise that not EVERY person is like that. i agree that martial arts is to learn how to handle yourself in a confrontation, but each person can take much more away from their training than that. if you don't, then it's not going to affect my life in anyway. and i wouldn't try to convince you that you should otherwise. so why would you to anyone else?

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by Mr. Bao
After 10 years or 20 years of practice, I hope I can say I am good. But I rather people judge my skill through my skill and not by me telling them.


Bao

You can practice for 20 years and still be a piece of crumpet when it comes to real fighting. Its not how long you train its how you train and what you put into it that counts, combined with how much real fighting experience you have.

When will people realise this!!!!!!!!!!!???

Frank Shamrock had no martial arts training till age 20, then trained for about 6 years submission wrestling and kickboxing and was one of the most dangerous fighters on the planet.

If after 10 years you still can't say your 'good' its time to do something else or realsie your a no-hoper.

Martial arts were designed to make people 'good' at fighting in a relatively short space of time (i.e 10 years max). At the moment I would say I am 'alright' at WingTsun. But after 10 years, I better be **** good otherwise I would have been doing something SERIOUSLY wrong in my training.

[red5angel]

MP - I saw enough to be confident that it works, but like everything, it takes some time and some practice before one is able to utilize those tools themselves.
As for building character in the martial arts, do you think you would be the same person if you were not doing them? Besides whose to say creating "enlightened self interest" isnt character building?

[TkdWarrior]

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The purpose of MA is not to build character. It's to learn to handle yourself in a confrontation.
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well it's agreeable...
if u wanna learn to build character then u should be in the character building class, serving community, acting religioss... wat MA has to do with Character Building?
if it's given then i think we can afford...
and ur character tells more about the enviornment u live in,the environment where u put ur time, the kind of ppl u meet...
character building starts from family n then from neighbourhood, n ur freinds... How much time u spent in character building in ur MA class?? hardly one hr per week i guess...then how do u think u can build character...if it's there...it'll build otherwise none...

MA builds character only when u spent 24/7/365 practicing with the kind of evironment u looking for... something like shaolin temple or Gurukul...

-TkdWarrior-

[crumpet]

i don't think anyone goes into a ma class intended to build character, but it CAN be something that comes out regardless. or maybe it doesn't, but the point is that we as people are shaped by our surroundings and experiences. if ma is our fav activity, it forms a part of our character. if i didn't do ma and trained in football instead, that would be as much a part of my character as ma is. i could argue that helping out at community centre isn't character building, it's their to provide a specific purpose. there is no activity that has been created to build character, it's just the experiences in doing any activity that shapes who we are. so imo and my own experiences, martial arts along with my job and school has strengthed my character.

[Merryprankster]

and it seems you're really into bad pop psychology.

I didn't say you can't develop some character from practicing a martial art. I said the PURPOSE of a martial art isn't to build character.

Those that think the purpose of a martial art is to build character are kidding themselves. Can you build character through the study of an MA? Of course. Perserverance, dedication, hard work and self-discovery are part of any lengthy endeavor that you find worth doing. Definitely character building.

I've stated repeatedly I don't have a problem with those who find MA's character building. I have a REAL problem with those that find the PURPOSE of MA's to be character building because they insist those that aren't doing it that way are doing it wrong.

See the difference? The purpose of oxycontin isn't to get high. but some people use it that way.

BTW, a forum is for discussion of ideas--sometimes heated, sometimes friendly, and sometimes plain old fun. If I didn't feel like being heard, I wouldn't type. I suspect, same with you.

[Merryprankster]

Red, you also thought the shot was an off-balance, over committed attack and that the trick was to sink your stance and stagger it so he couldn't take you down.

[red5angel]

yep, and while I agree there is plenty of balance I still say its overcommitted. I know MP, there are counters and counter-counters and circles within circles when dealing with the shoot but I think its too overcommittal for what I am loking for in wingchun. And to be fair I only ASKED if sinking the stance would work!

Anyway, I have my wrestling friend set up to come over friday night I will fill you in on the details next week!