Sek Gok Sum

[buddhapalm]

I would like to ask if the lineage of Sek Gok Sum features the forms "Mang Fu Ha Sahn" (Fierce Tiger Descends Mountain) and "Lin Wan Kuen" (Continious Fist) ?

I think that ShaolinMaster may be able to help me on this.

I am asking because I have these forms in my line, and from my research they point very close to pure Fujian Southern Shaolin curriculum. If Sek Gok Sum's art is pure Southern Shaolin, then knowing he taught it would help to verify my conclusion of these forms being fairly old Southern Shaolin forms.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[David Jamieson]

It is said that Seh Koh Sam's (Shi Gao Kan/Lim Ah Hung) Teacher was a master of the second chamber of Shaolin.


Leo Fong wrote a book that included the continuous and returning fist form and this book was centered on Sil Lum Kung Fu. The book was published in 1972, 12 years after the death of the monk seh koh sam. is this the same Lin wan Kuen you do?

here's a link for seh koh sam info:
http://www.mts.net/~sillum/sillum4%20monk.htm]
Here's another link with more info:
http://home-4.tiscali.nl/%7Et484585/index1.htm

Shaolin Kungfu spreads it's branches wide
peace

[buddhapalm]

Hi Kung Lek,
Yes its the same form (almost) described in the book by Leo Fong. He learned it from Wong Tim Yuen who learned a Fut Gar style from Leong Tien Chu. I researched the Leong Tin Chu/Wong Tim Yuen line and found they also had Mang Fu Ha Sahn which I also have..its the same set exactly. According to their line the style was directly from the Southern Shaolin Temple.

I thought that if the line of Sek Gok Sum came from Southern Shaolin Temple, then they may feature these forms also. It would be interesting to compare if they do.

As I mentioned in older posts, I have found the name "Mang Fu Ha Sahn" in Black Tiger style, Beggar Style, and Bak Mei (I think).

It would be interesting to compile a list of forms, techniques and styles practiced in the Southern Shaolin Temple proper. It may be impossible to determine, but with detective work and comparisons of the many Southern styles, it may be possible.

Thanks for the links.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Shaolin Master]

The pure arts of Sek Gok Sum do NOT feature Lin Wan Kuen nor Meng Fu Ha San.

However, some followers have made and even borrowed forms from other styles so some may have it. But this is not original material.

In the tradition there is Fu Hu Quan (Tiger Taming Fist) and Fu Hu Luohan (Tiger Taming Arhat). In fact there is also Lien Huan Quan but it differs from that of Leo Fong.

Lin Wan Kuen is from the Fut Ga tradition.

Meng Fu Ha San is also found in many places.

BE CAREFUL with forms names (often same name different form altogether). Fact is until I see the tradition from your line I will not be able to assess any resemblance.

SECOND CHAMBER refers to the branch of Buddhism NOT as in the 36 chamber films. The second chamber refers to division of Hui Neng. 48th generation from Buddha (not the same as Songshan Shaolin which commenced with Fu Yu).

[atari]

My grandfather being a Chu Gar practitioner did learn a portion of the Sek Gok Sum's Lohan fist in Indonesia. Apparently his 18 Lohan fist is very extensive and has a portion that is very close to Chu Gar in concepts. Sek Gok Sum only taught that portion to my grandfather and another portion which is based on Buddhist Sutras and teachings.

[FIRE HAWK]

Have you seen the Chuka Shaolin style yet it comes from Fukien Province and the Nun who founded the style is said to be the sister of Chi Shim and that he taught her the art her name is Leow Fah ShiH koo .Chuka Shaolin has forms that come from Fukien Province there are two books out on Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist .

[buddhapalm]

Thanks for your reply.

You said:

"Lin Wan Kuen is from the Fut Ga tradition.

Meng Fu Ha San is also found in many places."

Do you know anything more (history) of Lin Wan Kuen from Fut Gar other than from the book by Leo Fong ? I would be interested in knowing more about it.

I know this form passed down from my Sigung Dea Bak Doo from Toisan 1930's/40's.

Also do you know anything about the origin of Mang Fu Ha Sahn ? Also styles it is found in.

They were passed down with some other forms from Sigung Dea Bak Doo who learned them from Ma Kin Fung or another teacher/s in Canton.

Any help is appreciated.

By the way, the form names Fu Hu Quan and Fu Hu Luohan are found in Northern Shaolin Lohan Moon system ( Mizong and Pigua also if I remember correctly). I wonder if they are related ??? Most likely. Is this style the same as found in the Lohan style book by Draeger ? Like you said, perhaps they are just popular names.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

[Shaolin Master]

Atari,

Sutra's portion is of the Reciting Sutra Luohan.
That which is close to Chu Ga concepts is the Long Browed Luohan. Unfortunately, like I mentioned only a handful learnt the complete 18 Luohan as Grandmaster only thought of the quality and the benefit not the quantity and the volume. Also some students only knew the name luohan fist for everything or other names they thought/heard not the actual names. Regards to your grandfather.

Firehawk,
I have seen the second volume of the shaolin chu ga fist. I will be going to HuiZhou after ShanTou after ZhangZhou. Huizhou is the home of Hakka people and many Hakka arts (if not all) are found there. I will complete my studies of Hakka fist arts, origins and developments there and will post to you in mid to end 2003 when I can consolidate the research.

Buddha Palm,

I only know of Guangzhou Fut Ga as from my teacher who had studied it in his youth.

The style contained as examples :
Seung Fei Hu Dit (Double Flying Butterflies)
Noi Ga Kuen (Internal Fist)
Golden Needle Fist
Siu Lin Wan (Small Continuous Fist)
Dai Lin Wan (Large Continuous Fist)
Fut Ga TaiJiKim (TaiZi Sword)

There wasn't any Meng Fu Ha San Mentioned. Rather that set was of the "Hung Men" tradition (which is rich in sets). As Toisan also has many practitioners of Hung Men I'd be inclined to say that is the source. It was not uncommon for teachers to learn many styles master in one or two and keep their favorites from others into the new style.

Northern Shaolin Luohan Men is a different style altogether same name different sets. Mizong Luohan Men contains the same named Fu Hu Luohan.

regards to all.

Wu Chan Long

[buddhapalm]

Thanks again for your reply. You mention that in the Fut Gar system your Sifu practiced, that it featured:

Siu Lin Wan (Small Continuous Fist) and
Dai Lin Wan (Large Continuous Fist)

May I ask if either of these forms look at all like the form in Leo Fongs book ? Lien/Lin Wan Kuen.

Did his system include a Big Buddha Palm...Dai Fut Jeung ? Soft, slow palms, slaps and chops.

Also you mention that Meng Fu Ha Sahn is of the "Hung Men" tradition. Can you elaborate on that. To my understanding the "Hung Men" were a brotherhood.

Did they have a particular brand of martial arts in this sect ?

This would make sense, but I have not heard this before as it pertains to Mang Fu Ha Sahn. I would love to learn more about the martial arts practices of the "Hung Men" sect. I am somewhat familiar with the history of this sect, but the martial tradition has eluded me thus far. Within the four seas there are so many styles.

I look forward to learning some more.

Warmest Regards

Buddhapalm

[atari]

Shaolinmaster

You seem very knowledgeable about the arts of Sek Gok Sum. Its good to know that there are still inheritors of the rare arts of Sek Gok Sum. Thanks for the regards but my grandfather has already passed away.

My grandfather was taught the reciting sutra Lohan because at that time my grandfather had numerous challenge matches with the native silat practitioners of Indonesia. It was not uncommon for them to use spells when in a match. Scoff as you may, but many martial artist in Indonesia swear by these spells in which it is able to render one's opponent to loose their fighting spirit. Sek Gok Sum recommended the reciting sutra Lohan to conteract these spells or mind control methods. It consist of the sutra which is the first teachings on the 4 noble truths by Buddha. However I have also heard that some disciples were taught the Heart Sutra. What sutras are in your version of the sutra reciting Lohan?? My grandfather claims that the sutra which is the first teachings of Buddha more in line with the tradition of the Lohan as it is a Hinayana foundation sutra. Then again some claim that the Heart Sutra contains the higher teachings.

[Shaolin Master]

Atari,

It is actually the Heart Sutra as a principle one and other pieces I am not to say,....but the choice does not matter...each sutra has an objective and then again each is as useless as it is invailable. So whatever was taught at the time for whatever the reason is the correct one.

Yes it is true Indonesians are a very superstitious and many practise black magic which I will not say hey nor ney to for they just maybe.

My teachers Li Bin Ching, Chong Meng Ju, Ng Tsung Meng were well known in Singapore. Especially Master Chong who defeated many with his iron fist and headed the national army training. I am just a simple practitioner.

Buddhapalm,

The LinWan Kuen of Leo Fong contains some pieces of similarities but some movements seem simplified. It is closer to Small Lin Wan but not the exact same. No Dai Fut Cheung was mentioned.

Hung Men is another name for the Hung arts collective. The members of the group practised many martial arts and these were all incorporated into the style of the people. As a result it contains many forms including Ha San but also Ye Fu Chut Lum (Night Tiger Exits Mountain), Bak Fu Choi (White Tiger Strike), Sup Ji Kuen (Cross Fist), ....and some interesting combinations such as Dragon Tiger Set, Snake & Crane Set, Tiger & Leopard set...as well as ten animals (a set for each one) etc.... Due to the sheer size of the arts most practitioners did a little of this and that as their emphasis was on using the skills not practising the forms. It is resulted in around 10 staff sets and the like. The style then influenced many others and became associated with the Lau Men Pai (Wandarer's styles), Hung Fut, Fut Ga, and other styles in the guangdong areas. There isn't a single lineage tracing back and very few practice the exact same curriculums. Some call it Hung Kuen, Some SiuLumKuen, etc......to differentiate it from Hung Ga (of the Luk Ah Choy group) it has become popular known as Hung Men. The legendary and historical leader is of course Hung Hei Gun but who knows of those claims' reality from any style.

cheers,

[buddhapalm]

Shaolin Master,
Thanks again ! You are most well versed in this area :-)

As for my version of Lin Wan Kuen, it shares the same skeleton outline as the one in Leo Fongs book, but has a different feel by far. We perform in an East and West direction, not North and South. Also we use more full body motions as opposed to smaller arm-only motions, our version uses more double palms instead of single palms. At the end, the last 15 movements "look" like Northern style add ons with a leaping jump attack and spins etc.

I would love to see and perhaps one day learn brother/sister forms of this style. Could you recommend anywhere I could see or learn the forms you mentioned such as:

- Ye Fu Chut Lum (Night Tiger Exits Mountain),
- Bak Fu Choi (White Tiger Strike),
- Sup Ji Kuen (Cross Fist),

- Dragon Tiger Set,
- Snake & Crane Set,
- Tiger & Leopard
- 10 staff sets

Ye Fu Chut Lum sounds particularly interesting in name.

Also are there any recommended Fut Gar teachers you can recommend in Guandong presently ?

I am going to Canton early next year probably and may try to compare forms and trace some of my Southern lineage over there. Probably Toisan and or Guangzhou. Also grab some good Hoi-sin Chan :-))

Thanks again for your help.

Warmest Regards

Buddhapalm

[Shaolin Master]

Buddha Palm,

you are welcome, send me an email and I will send you the address of a good place. I will be there in February as well.

sifu@authenticshaolin.com


cheers

[atari]

Shaolin

The noble one riding an elephant,
absorbed in the chanting of the sutras.
With the heart of benefiting all sentien beings,
Eyes mindfull of the four corners of samsara.

[BearBear]

I have seen the second volume of the shaolin chu ga fist. I will be going to HuiZhou after ShanTou after ZhangZhou. Huizhou is the home of Hakka people and many Hakka arts (if not all) are found there. I will complete my studies of Hakka fist arts, origins and developments there and will post to you in mid to end 2003 when I can consolidate the research. - shaloin master

I look forward to hearing ur finding es too

thanks you