randy willamms

[russellsherry]

i have been traiining in wing chun snice 1974 in wsl wing chun haveing met randy
in 1994 and brought him to australia for three semminars so far and i willbe bring ing hiim out in the new year i was impressed with his chi sau pak sau drills
and footwork also randy is one of the best and nicest guys i have met as a disabled person seef has been very patient in his teaching with me he is a great guy fine wing chun teacher and people whom were not there should not commert on what happened between him
and sifu fong randy as we say in australia
is a good bloake russell sherry sifu

[Rolling_Hand]

--randy is one of the best and nicest guys i have met as a disabled person seef has been very patient in his teaching with me he is a great guy fine wing chun teacher and people whom were not there should not commert on what happened between him
and sifu fong randy as we say in australia
is a good bloake russell sherry sifu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO, Randy Williams is a very nice person.

[CRCABari]

Hi,

(At first sorry if my english is not so good)

i'm Vincent from Bari (South Italy), responsible for Randy Williams Website and Randy Williams student and friend; i agree with you guys saying that Sifu Randy Williams is not only a wonderful Wing Chun teacher but also a great person. Sifu always uses both his knowledge and his friendship during the training, and he never refuse anyway if you ask for explainations or suggestions.

I trained in other martial arts for many years... with the most unfriendly teachers (sometimes good, sometimes not so good), i'm actually studing Wing Chun with Sifu's best italian students and i can't wait for next Sifu's visit! Everytime we meet our Sifu we can count on a wise and simple person and this makes us happy to give him all the hospitality.

I want you to know i'm working to improve the website in the english section ( http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/wingchun or http://crcawc.supereva.it ).

Vincent.

[Mokujin]

Welcome to the boards, CRCABari.

I enjoy Sifu Williams tapes- very thorough and humorous.

When will the page be updated with articles and new stuff? Also, when is Sifu Williams releasing his new book series?

Thanks!

-Mokujin

[CRCABari]

Originally posted by Mokujin
Welcome to the boards, CRCABari.

I enjoy Sifu Williams tapes- very thorough and humorous.

When will the page be updated with articles and new stuff? Also, when is Sifu Williams releasing his new book series?

Thanks!

-Mokujin

.......................................
Hi Mokujin (great character!)

We're working to add as much stuff as possible on the website, unfortunately i have not so much free time this period to update it, by the way, we're working to put downloadable videos as soon as possible and the translation of italian pages is almost complete.

Sifu told me his new books will be out soon, i think after Christmas.

You can e-mail me from our website whenever you want, sending me some information (what exactly you would like to see or read, when you have visited the site for the last time...) so i will be able to inform you about all the updates in real time.

http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/wingchun
http://crcawc.supereva.it
http://www.crca.da.ru

Listen from you soon,

Vincent.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I would like to give some input on all the Randy bashing.

Years ago I spent about 5 years training under Randy's method and had a lot of fun. Prior to meeting him I had trained PSWC, and in Boston there was very little YMWC, so seeing that I would be able to visit him, bring him to Boston, use videos as reference etc. I decided to try his way. I also wanted to try his method since I had Fong's videos and liked the drilling. During the five years I travelled with Randy to LA and Madrid, Spain to be part of his video series. The time I spent with him was a lot of fun! He is indeed a fun guy to hang around with and loves to work out.

Eventually I decided his (art) method/teaching was not for me but that doesnt mean it is not for others. His background, association with Fong, written material etc. may all be open to discussion but anyone who wants to speak with him should just visit him or e-mail him personally. Or! Perhaps this may be a better idea! Why dont the list members discuss techinical aspects that you find breaking WC principles/methods instead of childish mudd slinging. Then maybe the level of this discussion will be raised and we can possibly learn something from it.


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Spain to be part of his video series

WTF? Post screen caps!!!!

[Jim Roselando]

Hey RR,


WTF???? Post screen caps???? Huh!


Looking back at those tapes I really get a laugh. Sometimes I wish I was never caught on film at that stage (or even now) but I guess its memories and I can say there has been growth since then! Atleast I hope so!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

WTF???? Post screen caps???? Huh!

Now don't be coy, Jim. We know you musta been wearing bell bottoms and sporting some serious Italian 'fro hairdo back then. I'm just asking for you to post the pictures (screen captures from the video) so we can all enjoy!

Looking back at those tapes I really get a laugh. Sometimes I wish I was never caught on film at that stage (or even now) but I guess its memories and I can say there has been growth since then! Atleast I hope so!

I think I must have seen some of them somewhere, somehow. A young tiger in the making, you were. Know what you mean about getting caught on film, in a medium where even the experts look less than stellar, how can our fragile selves cope?

RR

[Tap Man]

To add to Jim's point, and in an effort to clarify whatever it is that is causing so much controversy surrounding the relationship between Augustine Fong and Randy Williams -

Randy's still trying to figure out what he did to tick all these people off in the first place. He has never disrespected Fong. He stopped crediting Fong as an instructor in his further publications when asked to do so over 10 years ago. He never stole a **** thing from Fong - every bit of knowledge he got from Fong was from personal one-on-one instruction from 1986 to 1989, much of which was paid for, or from books and videos GIVEN to him by, or PURCHASED from Fong (NOT stolen! In exchange for his teachings, Fong was reimbursed by Randy with money, gifts and all-expense-paid trips to LA, Hong Kong and Singapore) as part of a home study program since he did not live in AZ. Randy has offered to show proof of his certification, copies of videotaped lessons with Fong in AZ, LA and Singapore, as well as photos with Fong to verify his claim that he trained with Fong to anyone who comes to see him. Period. Not proof that he is or was any great student of Fong's. Merely that he trained with him, which is all he has ever claimed, and he still stands by his word. He still claims, and is willing to prove, that the books he wrote were done with Fong's full knowledge and permission as a prelude to producing a similar but improved series for Fong after learning the book business with his own attempt. Throughout the books, he states that he is not among Fong's top students. He checked with Fong repeatedly by phone from Singapore during the production of the books for verbal corrections and additions to the MS. The phone records still exist of many lengthy conversations between Randy's business phone in Singapore and Fong's Craycroft Avenue gym in 1988 that usually took place just after 9PM AZ time, and Randy is willing to do the necessary legwork to share them with anyone who wishes to visit him and requests them. The money he made from the books, as well as all the money he made using the name "Fong's Wing Chun" (fully registered in Singapore in 1988 with Fong's full knowledge and permission - see the Straits Times, Tuesday, May 17, 1988 or consult with Singapore's Martial Arts Control Unit, which still maintains Randy's original teaching certificate that was given to him by Fong), was donated entirely to the Singapore Spastic Children's Association. Again, Randy is willing to show anyone interested the many letters of thanks and receipts for over $40,000.00 in donations to that Cerebral Palsy foundation, which was used to purchase wheelchairs, walking aids and even an ambulance for the children there from 1988-91, all made under the name "Fong's Wing Chun". Augustine Fong himself was sent letters from the Association thanking him for the support of his Singapore followers. Please check with him on that.

Randy did not and does not use Fong's name for any extra publicity or material gain - he had already been featured in Inside Kung Fu and other MA publications since 1982 and had already made the IKF cover in 1985, before having met Fong. All he has been doing is continuing to pursue his livelihood as a WC instructor, which he already was, long before ever meeting Fong.

For more proof that Randy was a student of Fong's at one time, see IKF December, 1986 and you will see a photo of Randy and Fong together, taken at the IKF studio in LA during one of Fong's visits to Randy and used as the lead shot for the article. If Randy was not at least a student of Fong's, then how can one explain that magazine, the Straits Times article (as well as the Xinming Ribao - the Chinese language Singapore newspaper) and SBC television interview Fong gave while in Singapore, where he recounted the tale of how he was awarded the title of "Golden Ribbon Boxer" by Sifu Ho Kam Ming while defending the school's honor in a challenge match in Hong Kong when he was a student there? In those interviews, besides acknowledging Randy as a top student, whose Singapore followers were "picking up the art much faster than my American students" because "they are Chinese and have the GongFu culture behind them", Fong also told how he had been informed by Sifu Ho Kam Ming just the week before that the challenger, who he soundly defeated with a punch in the forehead, was still to that very day in a mental hospital in Hong Kong after that damaging punch he had been dealt by the young master Fong all those years ago. This is no idle claim, and these interviews can be obtained independently by anyone who wishes to verify or debunk its existence by contacting the Straits Times, Xinming Ribao or Singapore Broadcasting System for copies. Or visit Randy, who keeps original copies of both papers as well as copies of the finished news report as well as the rough-cut, pre-editing interview footage from SBC with a more detailed account of the HK challenge match. Preferably, check with Fong himself, who will undoubtedly verify these statements to be true.

Besides the footage of his and his students' private training in Singapore and LA, Randy also keeps approximately 15 hours of seminar footage from Singapore in which Fong states repeatedly, very clearly, what a fine job Randy had done preparing the group for his visit, and how little correction most of them needed when doing their SLT form and other WC drills and exercises. Some of the people that were there can still be easily contacted if there is any doubt these tapes have been doctored.

We think that Sifu Fong himself could clear the air to his own students on most of these issues and we request that he does so, so that we can all move past this old news. Randy himself tried many times to contact Fong personally when things started to get bad in 1991, but after repeated attempts, he received a letter from a woman claiming to be Fong's attorney, demanding that Randy make no further attempt to contact Fong, which Randy has complied with for over 10 years since.

Realistically, what does everyone expect Randy to do, give up WC just because he was expelled from Fong's school in 1989? Would you, if you had been training as long as Randy had, prior to meeting Fong? A man has the right to make a living, even if he is fired from a job and his old boss won't give him a reference.

All he did was visit Fong's teacher in HK, which caused an irreparable rift between his Sifu and himself for reasons he refuses to make public unless he receives the go-ahead from Fong personally to tell the story. He did his best to respect the relationship after the split, but he was not about to quit Wing Chun because of it.

The books he did were the best he could do 14 years ago with the knowledge he had of the system after meeting Fong and making multiple changes in a short span of time. But he knew then, and knows now, much more than what he was able to present in the books. He already had a lot of years in WC before that, and he felt he did the best possible job he could to honor his teacher and (newly revised) system, as well as to earn money for a charity that was (and is) very dear to him. By the time Fong had expelled him from his organization, it was too late to stop the book's production.

Randy is the first to admit he's not the best WC man on earth, nor the best writer, nor the best producer of books and videos. He admits he is fallible, and has made many mistakes in life, including in his WC career. But everyone should remember that when you point the finger at someone, three fingers are pointing back at yourself.

We at the CRCA would like to know exactly what it is that Augustine Fong and his group expects of Randy Williams in order to right whatever wrongs he feels he has suffered due to Randy's perceived misdeeds and past offenses. We will comply, if Fong's request is within reason, in order to clear Randy's name once and for all in this matter.

Tap Man Out

[yuanfen]

Jim R sez:Why dont the list members discuss techinical aspects that you find breaking WC principles/methods instead of childish mudd slinging. Then maybe the level of this discussion will be raised and we can possibly learn something from it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim: some points:
1.Technically- the lifting of materials without understanding them shows. Technically bad bong sao, tan sao and fok sao...technically-stiff- wrong angulations, shoulder raised in the pics,technically- jerky poon sao in the video, technically poor turning in chum kiu and with the jong...doesnt that say it enough?

2.Fong's theory book was written and distributed before RW's singapore printed stuff was in the works.The latter changes a few things here and there without obviously understanding the material.Fong's videos wre already out. Inside Kung Fu wanted to get into videos ina big way and Rw was available. IKF has since moved on to other money making enterprises.

3. Kung fu invoves long sustained regular corrections of practically everything. That is not the case here.

4. Several years ago- Fong made a definitive statement on his non relationship with the person in question. he does not keep up with RW. Its upto someone else to publish that statement if they wish.

5. This is not the first or the last time that someone who shoulnt -claims he wasa student,despite imitation beinga form of flattery.
Many folks have pictures with Fong-so what, For this reason- see Fong's site on his
position on students. The certified and affiliated instructors are listed. End of story. Can we move on? Ip Man' reputation has had problems with people saying that they learned from him. Same with the good ones in the next generation and similar claims continue on.

6. Fong is not on net lists- doesnt keep up with them and authorizes no one to represent him on xxxx chat.

7 RW has been around long enough and therefore is on his own..Yau was back in China the last I heard-long ways from learning from Fong's slt book and working ina Phoenix Chinese restaurant kitchen.and ergo in the great market place :caveat emptor.
on any claimed traditional lineage issues.

And Tapman and co- dont bother folks- surely you have better things to do. Why not go your own way? Be happy.

[yuanfen]

PS. It may well be that RW is a good "fighter" and his students
too....dont know and dont particularly care. My comments are limited to wing chun per list focus.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Joy,

I don't want to fan the flames at all, but I like the discussion. I think these can be talked about without too much flaming. I have a few comments.

The first is what would it take for the Fong people to leave Mr Williams alone. I think this was a legit question. Though to be fair, in my experience it is usually a third party individual that asks a question, which is followed by a couple heated posts. I have not seen any Fong or William students start any attacks.

As to your itmes

1) Isn't this true of any people in any lineage? This sounds like half a dozen people at my school ; )

2) Although I don't hold anything against Williams for wanting to put out material. It is also natural that he would put out what he was taught. I have only one Fong Book, which is a rather simple picture book. Not much writting. But I have heard there is another series, though I could be wrong. In any case, Plagerism is plagerism. If the content is the same, regardless of a few minor changes, then the Fong line has a point. If it is just regurgitation of stuff he learned in class, then I beleive its fair game.

3) I know that, you know that, every one knows that. But often that is not the case. Most of Yip Man's students were not long time students and went there own way realativly shortly. Some may have continued to be corrected here and there. Makes sense that we see the same or similar things in other lines. But I agree, you can't learn the stuff quickly. Too much stuff to forget or to cover in the first place.

4) Sounds clear. Not sure if anything else needs to be said.

5)I missed two oppertunities for Photos with Fong. Next time I'll jump at it so I can boost myself ; ) Of course this is a silly thing. It seems Randy claims to be a student, Fong claims he was not. There seems there was SOME interaction between them. Maybe see the other post on what it takes to be a student. Personally, if the teacher said he was not a student, I would tend to beleive them. My teacher has taught many people, but not all are considered students. Heck, I am not even sure if I am considered a student : (

6) Typical of most Sifu...and relavent in that we all can speculate or spout off all we want without any good.

7) Not sure what the point of this one is

Just some thoughts
Tom Parker

PS I was lured into the RW tapes and I must say they are done very well. They do do a service to wing chun. Of course I have many gripes with them becuase my lineage is soo different from what he does. It seems even his lineage is soo different from what he does. LOL. But atlest he brings people in.....

[vingtsunstudent]

well seeing as nobody else has said hello.
i just thought i would welcome kato to our forum.
and by the way russell do you mind me asking who was teaching the wong shun leung way in oz back in 74.
vts

[yuanfen]

Gee Tom- the thread was over for me...but since you ask things
I comment in brackets:
Hi Joy,

I don't want to fan the flames at all, but I like the discussion.
((C'mon- liking and fanning are not necessarily mutually exclusive))
I think these can be talked about without too much flaming. I have a few comments.
((really- we will see))

The first is what would it take for the Fong people to leave Mr Williams alone.
( Whoever you refer to as Fong people dont begin discussions on
the gentleman in question. So if a supposed Fong connection is discussed or mentioned by some one else thats a different matter. )))

I think this was a legit question.
((which one?))

Though to be fair, in my experience it is usually a third party individual that asks a question, which is followed by a couple heated posts. I have not seen any Fong or William students start any attacks.
((So- whats yout point- since you address your post to me))

As to your itmes

1) Isn't this true of any people in any lineage? This sounds like half a dozen people at my school ; )

((Jim R. asked for technical discussion...thats what item #1 pointed towards. Sounds? Seems? Looks? I am not there and I
dont have your perception. If I perceive the same features in someone and that is being discussed and I comment- I would say the same. High shoulders and stiffness is not good wing chun IMO)))

2) Although I don't hold anything against Williams for wanting to put out material. It is also natural that he would put out what he was taught.
((Here we go again... he isnt and wasnt a regular student of Fong... am I clear enough? Two weekends, invite him for a seminar, call him on the [hone and have pictures taken with him-
doesnt make hima student of Fong. Just remember Tom- you-not I are vringing this up again. I have misplaceda picture with Jack dempsey in his NYC resraurant- does that make me a student of Dempsey?))
I have only one Fong Book, which is a rather simple picture book. Not much writting.
((So? At that time there were not many books on the slt etc))
But I have heard there is another series, though I could be wrong.
((Point being?))
In any case, Plagerism is plagerism.
((Surely... a rose is a rose is a rose))

If the content is the same, regardless of a few minor changes, then the Fong line has a point.
((Belaboring the point. Many of Fong's early books went out of print fast))
If it is just regurgitation of stuff he learned in class, then I beleive its fair game.

((He was not a member of a regular class- for the umpteenth time Tom))

3) I know that, you know that, every one knows that. But often that is not the case. Most of Yip Man's students were not long time students and went there own way realativly shortly. Some may have continued to be corrected here and there. Makes sense that we see the same or similar things in other lines. But I agree, you can't learn the stuff quickly. Too much stuff to forget or to cover in the first place.
((Point being?))

4) Sounds clear. Not sure if anything else needs to be said.
((Good. So you understand ))

5)I missed two oppertunities for Photos with Fong. Next time I'll jump at it so I can boost myself ;
((Think that will do it?))

) Of course this is a silly thing. It seems Randy claims to be a student, Fong claims he was not. There seems there was SOME interaction between them.
((I chatted with Wong Shon Leung- did poon sao with him...have his autograph somewhere- does that make me his student?
C'mon))

Maybe see the other post on what it takes to be a student.
((Point being?))

Personally, if the teacher said he was not a student, I would tend to beleive them.
((Fong spends zero time on this question))

My teacher has taught many people, but not all are considered students.
(Not uncommon phenomenon))

Heck, I am not even sure if I am considered a student : (
((Not for me to say--I dont know how often you take lessons))

6) Typical of most Sifu...and relavent in that we all can speculate or spout off all we want without any good.
((Yes-hence the strangeness of some discussions))

7) Not sure what the point of this one is
((Point being- when folks have been doing something for a while
and someone wants to learn whatever is being taught-sonce Adam Smith's days-caveat emptor...you takes your chances.
On the other point Yau was the first sifu that RW mentions))

Just some thoughts
((??))
Tom Parker

PS I was lured into the RW tapes and I must say they are done very well. They do do a service to wing chun. Of course I have many gripes with them becuase my lineage is soo different from what he does. It seems even his lineage is soo different from what he does. LOL. But atlest he brings people in.....

((I am having trouble following your chain of thought Tom)))