Why have we yet to see a REAL CMA in the UFC?

[Merryprankster]

[Internal Boxer]

It is not uncommon for Internal Masters to have a wrestling background, take Sun Lu Tang who's system I study he was an experienced wrestler, I too practice submission fighting, I do not see anything wrong with keeping my Internal MA for stand up, and if I get taken to the groung which sometimes they do but sometimes they dont then submission fighting comes into play, I have found that my ground work helps with stand up fighting and stand up helps with ground fighting, Why you ask?? cause you are developing body skill all the time, listening, sensitivity, altering oponents structure, inherent weaknesses in the oponents body and so on.

Many styles of punch and kick fighting are quite light on their feet when sparing, what the submission guys have shown is there is an inherent weakness in this style of fighting, thats why above everything else, root training is a must.

A grood wrestler does not even have to take you to ground, many are trained in skills to close the gap avoid getting hit for the clinch and get a throw or a headlock, and believe me these guys are superb, again strike fighters have nothing in their arsenal to prevent this since the tournies they have entered do not train skills to counteract the grapplers, look what happens in a boxing match a few punches then a clinch, but the ref breaks them up and they begin punching again, I have heard the argument that Traditional Chinese Martial arts a couple of hundred years ago used to train against grapplers all the time as grapplers were considered quite deadley, which enabled the Traditional Martial Artist to counter act the skills they needed to help defeat the grappler. But today very few CMA fighters train against grapplers, which breeds a skill deficiency in the area of dealing with a grappler.

For me we are the Sum of our experiences, CMA practioners should not even voice their opinions on submission fighting without spending at least 6 months under a good tutor, the same applies to the wresters critcising a well rounded CMA practioners who has ability against a grappler. I would like to see much more friendly cross training. And to stop all this bickering bullsh.it between the different fractions.

[SevenStar]

Good post!!!

On a related note, yesterday in BJJ, one of the guys found out I used to do longfist and said he'd love to see my forms sometime as he'd always been interested in kung fu and that he had a blue belt in shotokan. MMA are WAY more open minded than many CMA give them credit for.

[Braden]

"It is not uncommon for Internal Masters to have a wrestling background..."

Don't forget Cheng Ting Hua, who was quite the wrestling afficianado before meeting Dong Hai Chuan! Cheng would have been the main bagua influence on your Sun Lu Tang as well, I believe.

[apoweyn]

okay, here's a question that i hope isn't going to sound biased (because, in truth, i don't really regard myself as a TMA or MMA, but some weird fusion thereof).

what, precisely, would constitute a real CMA practitioner in the UFC?

lineage? use of technique?

there have to be some criteria. and if we're going to be totally honest and analytical about it, it can't come down to simply whether or not the guy won. if he lost, disown him. if he won, you could practically see the glow of TCMA coming off of him as he moved.

know what i mean? if a guy who claimed to be bagua, for example, won a UFC match but did so with a good flurry of punches and a low kick, would he be hailed as evidence of CMA's effectiveness? or would he be lumped with the other UFC competitors who failed to represent true CMA?

there have been quite a few CMA practitioners in the UFC. and i'm wondering, objectively, what is it that marked them as not the real deal?

jason delucia is the usual poster child. i don't have background enough to say whether he's representative or not. but what, in the eyes of the CMA community, marked him as not being legit?

again, i'm not trying to incite anything. but i don't think we can really address this question very honestly without knowing what would constitute an answer.


stuart b.

p.s. to reinforce that i've got no real stake in this personally (beyond intellectual curiosity), i consider myself most closely aligned with the filipino arts (as much as i align myself with any one art). and there have been no FMA guys in the UFC. so i'm certainly not playing that angle.

anyway, what do you think?

[Chang Style Novice]

I think the most appropriate criterion would be if the guy has appeared in at least one movie made by Sammo Hung, Yuen Wo-Ping, Chang Cheh, or Liu Chia Liang. Extra points for a 'tictactoe' grid of incense scars on his forehead or a slow-motion finishing move.

Seriously, I think the problem with your example of a bagua player who wins with a low kick and flurry of punches is that a lot of cma guys train more than one art. Bagua might be his main thing, but perhaps he thought his wing chun was more applicable to this particular opponent.

As a side note, since just about every technique that shows up in mma matches (with the exception of groundgrappling stuff) is found in one cma or another, we might also say that cma already has been proven effective in the ring.

[apoweyn]

LOL. man, seeing a guy with the dots on his skull would be so worth the price of pay-per-view.

yeah, the bagua thing was definitely an imperfect example. but that kind of proves my point. there seems to be no clear notion of what a CMA fighter would look like in MMA. would it look like yuen wo ping were choreographing it? (we should be so lucky.) or would it look like anyone else? and if so, what would be the basis for that person's acceptance or rejection as a real CMA?

you're right, of course. virtually every CMA teaches how to strike with fist and foot. so would it take for something in the octagon to be uniquely representative of CMA?

my personal take is that i'm fine with a CMA fighter that essentially looks like every other fighter. to my mind, that doesn't suggest that he 'abandoned' his CMA in the octagon in favour of something else. it simply means that, via his CMA, he arrived at an effective baseline of skills as applicable to that arena.

so what is it that other people are looking for in an ideal CMA fighter for MMA?

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Of course, I'm sure I'll be told I'm just jealous and I don't understand.

You sir, are just jealous and don't understand.



Other than Joel Sutton (the Mantis guy Stacey mentioned) and the Wing Chun guy (Steve Faulkner) who got his butt handed to him in less than 60 seconds, does anyone else know of Kung Fu guys who've participated in NHB?

Also I saw apoweyn mention Jason Delucia. Isn't he Shaolin?

Someone mentioned karate, tae kwon do and ninjutsu being in NHB...does anyone know there names?

Something I think though is that sometimes a lot of older people do CMA over younger people, and older people don't have time to train that intense to do NHB. Take me for example, I am the YOUNGEST in my class, coming in at only 19 years old. The closest to my age would have to be my instructor who is 29. I couldn't do a NHB because I go to school 5 days a week and work 4 or 5 days a week as a waiter, I have little time to do such a thing, not to mention I still suck at CMA and would get creamed .

There might be some CMA guys in local NHB events that no one has noticed, and these people really don't want to go big time even if they had the shot. I sure as hell wouldn't, Id probably soil myself being in front of so many people.

[apoweyn]

philbert,

i believe that delucia was billed as five animals kung fu.

off the top of my head:

steve jennum was ninjutsu. i think there may have been another as well, but i'm not sure.

kimo originally billed himself as taekwondo, though you'd never know it. even working on the heavy bag before his match, he didn't look it to me. but whatever.

the infamous fred ettish, i believe was a karateka. there have been others though. there was a japanese fella. and an israeli champ, i think. moti horenstein, if memory serves.

as for other kung fu practitioners, i believe wing chun has produced several fighters. scott something or other was a wing chun guy if memory serves.

i think there were several more who fought as alternates, so i haven't seen their matches.


stuart b.

[SevenStar]

most of the students where I was training longfist were under 28, with the exception of sifu and a couple of others. I would think that most would be younger, at least in an external CMA.

[The Willow Sword]

In a hand to hand combat scenario it would be feasable to assume that it will eventually go to the ground and either a breaking of the neck or choke would end the situation. From what i can gather from talking to Vietnam vets that will talk about thier hand to hand experiences they have always told me that this is what happens and 9 times out of 10 there is a weapon involved,,mainly a knife or a .45. the point i am making is that why i think we have yet to see a REAL CMA in the UFC is simply because CMA,in all accounts deals with a choreographed scenario that is similar to the movie style fighting and the chinese novels that depict these harmonious exchanges of blocks and counters and such. and if one washes out all of that choreography we see a simple exchange of punch and kick and block and counter with a repeat of the same. Japanese karate seems to have simplified this system of fighting. and when we compare to BJJ we simply see a punch or a kick to distract or disable then a take down,,a struggle to get mounted and then a choke. simple and effective,,right? The UFC matches that i have rented have been quite boring for there is really no type of glamour or show. But one can see the apparent simplicity of a fight.
HOWEVER,,many factors are pretty much eliminated due to rules that inhibit the fighter from utilizing his full potential,,,such as with CMA that serve to teach the simplicity of the fight through traditional and spiritual means.
We will probably NEVER see a REAL fight braodcast on any TV or pay per view. we would have to see this either illegally in some underground fight arena (such as what we were sort of exposed to in the movie "Bloodsport" and i use this reference loosely.) To see whether or not BJJ or MMA is compared to traditional CMA or JMA,,we would have to see the no holds barred all out fight for your very life to REALLY determine what is most effective. I do not think that A braodcast fight with rules and regulations will ever really tell us anything other than in the ring BJJ is king,,but that is not to say that BJJ or MMA is king out in the world of the street or in times of War (which we are about to engage in if the repubs and dubya have thier way.

Hey im just writing this junk down as it comes to me,,so if some of it seems redundant or stupid,,,,,i apologize,,,,ive nothing better to do today

Peace love and glass coated fists,,,,,,,the willer swad

[cagey_vet]

Re: grrr i wrote a freaking BOOK and the browser lost the POST operation, but i digress

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by cagey_vet
why do we seek justification and respect from MMA
people all the time? i know what i can do, they know what they
can do and we are totally different. i may not want to do what
they do and they may not want to do what i can do. fabulous.
thats fine by me.


seven star wrote:

The need to prove your style. MMA didn't bother CMA until CMA started talking about how they could defend easily against grappling techniques. So far, it has yet to happen. Perhaps CMA want to finally show that they can use their stuff to defend bjj takedowns.

to which i respond:

i can defeat grappling techniques.
just not ALL of them by EVERYone EVERY single time.
so now tell me that it has so far yet to happen when i
have done so, keeping in mind the above caveat of my
fallibility. i am not a monster martial artist, but i AM cagey,
and i AM fairly quick. but i can empathize with the rest of
what you imply there.


cagey_vet originally wrote:

MMA guys arent interested in learning complicated hand sets,
or refined biomechanical movement, or esoteric philosophies,
or any of the cool stuff inherent in COMPLETE styles of CMA.
there is no, repeat, -no- complete MMA.
kinda tells you something right there doesnt it.

we are 2 different paradigms.


seven star responded:

Dead wrong. grappling is extremely biomechanical and very subtle, as I stated above. when you are dealing with immobilizing a person effectively, locking joints, maneuring in awkward positions, etc. you HAVE to pay close attention to mechanics, there simply is no other way. As for completeness, you don't need philosophy to be complete. MA = MARTIAL art. the original intention of MA was to prepare for combat. archery, weapons, hand to hand, etc. all fall into this category - history and philosophy does not.

to which i reply:

skillful CMA body mechanics are different than grappling mechanics.
period.
so i wont bother to explain it, if you dont get it already.
and yes, you need (among other things) philosophy to be complete to be considered a 'complete martial art'.
thats how it evolved to what we have today.
the term MA, so adapted, encompasses many areas
of combat and conflict. but by todays standards, if Joe Blow studies a martial art that never tests itself by fighting or contact, is it complete?
there is a tacit understanding at least among advanced knowedgable practitioners of internal kung fu, that without
some sort of philosophical material to use for either inspiration,
direction, motivation or learning the art form, then the art is
not a complete one. there are other factors that if missing will
not complete an art as well, but thats the best way i can explain it.
if, after that, you dont get it, i cant help you further.
we will have to agree to disagree. =)

[cagey_vet]

i dont exhibit CMA snobbery, and i appreciate the sideswipe,
whoever that was. i am just a purist, you might say.
i believe in what i do, and it works for me just fine.

and i know that seven star will have the last word, he ALWAYS
does... and with over 2000 posts by him alone, this is a discussion that just by sheer numbers i will not persuade
anyone of my point, what with my under 40 posts :P

anyways, its futile to discuss anything here without things being blown up out of proportion by trolls and people with nothing better to do

you're up 7star...

[SifuAbel]

"the point i am making is that why i think we have yet to see a REAL CMA in the UFC is simply because CMA,in all accounts deals with a choreographed scenario that is similar to the movie style fighting and the chinese novels that depict these harmonious exchanges of blocks and counters and such. "

[slim]

I posted on this subject back on about page 2. I invite you to take a look and reply.

I'd like to make an addition to my original post in light of the question; what makes a CMA practitioner in the ring and out of the ring?

One thing we have to realize is that fighting is not pretty. I think that a lot of the time we expect to see a clean attack-block-counter combination with a CMA practitioner in the ring. I think some entrants with a CMA background expect to pull that off too. The fact of the matter is that the pretty techniques like that aren't the whole fight, in fact, they are rare in a fight. A practiced and well executed technique often wins the fight/match (either grappling or striking), but it takes a lot of messy looking work to get there, so we see the messy work and say "that's not CMA".

The truth is, there are only so many ways that you can strike, shoot, choke, bar, lock. At the higher levels all MA will start to look similar in action. The training outside of the fight is the difference. I submit that what differentiates CMA from MMA is what is practiced/focused on outside of the ring and has very little to do with the look of the fight/match that the practitioner is in. A corollary to the point is that the well practiced and well executed techniques used by each will reflect what they focus on in training.

slim

PS - this is turning into a great discussion, thanks to all.