Family Buisiness

[Rob Wolf]

Hello,
It seems that a lot of Wing Chun instructors have made up their minds to either dawg each other or to cross train in the study of sport jujitsu. Well, I never said I didn’t know how to use it, I said I never had much use for it!!!!! Now please don’t get me wrong I’ve had plenty of exposure to the art as my father and my brother have practiced jujitsu pretty much there whole lives….. now that being said, I would also like to add my partners that I run our Academy with, as some of you may know, teach jujitsu(brazilian and traditional japanese) and two of them are local law enforcement officers . A Tucson police officer and a Pima county Sheriff, This leading up to me stating that when in training it was in fact brought to their attention that the art of jujitsu should not be let to hinder their duty’s as it was a sport, not being applicable for real life street application i.e. attempting to roll around with people etc. etc. Now keeping things on track I would like to pose a question to our group. Do any of you feel that jujitsu tecniques typically go against Wing Chun theory as they plant you in akward , muscle /strength type of positions which usually have oneself lying on their backs or pulling/pushing with ones own hands and feet as well. Ok! So whats the big fuss and why bother to worry about combining jujitsu with our Wing Chun??? We are an established anti-grappling style with many ground defences inherent in the Wing Chun system, all the tecniques we practice are counters to grabs and holds etc., think about it!!!!! If Wing Chun is practiced with practical application and self defence in mind , then you needn’t bring jujitsu into the spectrum, striking beats locking ,locking beats takedowns and takedowns beats striking, sound familiar?? The cycle of 2nd form beats the 1st form and 3rd form beats the 2nd form, yet the 1st form counters the third!!! Any true combat oriented martial art will utilize these concepts, correct?? Lets keep the jujitsu on the mats and the gung fu on the street!!We should encourage our fellow, established Wing Chun Sifus to refrain from jumping on each other and the UFC bandwagon and PRACTICE and PROMOTE Chinese Southern Shaolin Martial arts…….YES!!!!!?????? and oh yeah as an afterthought I havent forgot that some may feel obligated to ask me why do I cross train in the Hung Gar system?? Well , you see , Wing chun Happens to to be derivative of the south shaolin temple and Hung Gar is the Sihing so to speak of its little sister, if you will, Wing Chun. The inherent primary weapon and the usage of the Butterfly knives and the long pole are the weapons made famous by the great Sil lum Hung Kuen Grandmaster Wong fei Hung, The intrinsic energy’s and developmental qualities of the Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma (which I always point out as being a developmental training stance, not unlike a yoga posture and as we all know has been misconstrued by some as a fighting stance) also being present , The Bong sau, tan sau, gan sau, pac sau, gwat sau etc. low kicks, shadowless kicks, Buddha palms, Chum kiu(sinking bridge tecnique/searching for the bridge form ) Shooting fingers, Ch’an (i.e.Zen) concepts, snake and crane principles….soft/ hard, .sticking bridges, bracing and crowding stances, shooting stance, sam gok ma, and inch power, the whole Jee Shim /Ng Mui/Wong Wah Bo/red boat connection???. Oooo and hey , how bout the Hung Gar Dit sin kuen(Iron Wire Fist) Siu lim Tau Connection???? (hard as steel yet soft as cotton, yee jee kim yeung ma etc…) bows to the buddha.??? also worthy of mention as would be the stances present in the weapons forms of Wing Chun as some may know, are based on Sil Lum footwork, the low practiced , yet typically high applied with hip generated execution of bone joint(whipping) power.!! Live power favourable to dead power(san lek/say lek)….. I could go on all bloody night!!!!! But hey! To wind this thing up, lets keep the arts intact. Lets keep our family together!!!! One big family, all of US. The others don’t matter, There are wayyyyyy to many people out there trying to make a fast buck on our Si-Jo’s and Si-Gungs and Si-Fu’s hard work and would be more than happy to tear us down, don’t believe me??? Just look AROUND. WE MUST SUPPORT OUR FAMILY, go out and build, not destroy ok!!!! Tell it like it is, or how you SAW it or learned it. Lets not make comments that dig US into little shallow graves , so to speak. You see a shadow strike it, but don’t chase it for gods sake!! Save the chasing to be done with your footwork!! Get it?? So, don’t put the cart before the horse, don’t count your chickens before they are hatched , to many eggs in yer basket…..one good kick better than a thousand lousy ones, blah, blah blah…………Regards, Sifu Lopez www.sillumwingchun.com

[yenhoi]

I didnt read your long ass post but I went to your website - pretty cool, flying knives and all.

[anerlich]

"Now keeping things on track I would like to pose a question to our group."

You actually asked a lot more than one question.

"Do any of you feel that jujitsu tecniques typically go against Wing Chun theory as they plant you in akward , muscle /strength type of positions which usually have oneself lying on their backs or pulling/pushing with ones own hands and feet as well. "

No. And if your people are teaching jiu jitsu that way, strength against strength and strength against technique, you're doing it differently from most others.

"Ok! So whats the big fuss and why bother to worry about combining jujitsu with our Wing Chun???"

You tell me. I can't see a problem myself.

"We are an established anti-grappling style "

Opinions vary.

"with many ground defences inherent in the Wing Chun system, all the tecniques we practice are counters to grabs and holds etc., think about it!!!!! "

I did. I guess I can agree with that. If the system did'nt have any such defenses it would be pretty useless.

"If Wing Chun is practiced with practical application and self defence in mind , then you needn’t bring jujitsu into the spectrum, striking beats locking ,locking beats takedowns and takedowns beats striking, sound familiar?? "

Not really and I don't think it's ever that simple. Most WC guys try to tell me they can defeat takedowns with striking, for example.

"The cycle of 2nd form beats the 1st form and 3rd form beats the 2nd form, yet the 1st form counters the third!!! "

As above.

"Any true combat oriented martial art will utilize these concepts, correct??"

Maybe, but I don't think it necessarily follows or is a requirement.

"Lets keep the jujitsu on the mats and the gung fu on the street!!"

I'm not sure I like your bandwagon's tune, I don't think I'll jump on it.

We should encourage our fellow, established Wing Chun Sifus to "refrain from jumping on each other and the UFC bandwagon and PRACTICE and PROMOTE Chinese Southern Shaolin Martial arts…….YES!!!!!?????? "

Jumping on each other yes. Why not build bridges to other styles as well though? My Sifu practices jiu jitsu, his website is www.combatcentres.com. He also practices and promotes WC. Go browbeat him via email if you wish, but I suspect you'll get ignored. One of my earlier instructors was a black belt in jiu jitsu before he took up CMA and still teaches its techniques along with chi na from Bok Pai Sil Lum.

"and oh yeah as an afterthought I havent forgot that some may feel obligated to ask me why do I cross train in the Hung Gar system?? "

I feel no obligation to ask you this question, though it does tend to water down your anti jiu jitsu argument a bit.

Lots of cops practice jiu jitsu here. It's also in the US army hand to hand combatives manual now.

"Sheriff, This leading up to me stating that when in training it was in fact brought to their attention that the art of jujitsu should not be let to hinder their duty’s as it was a sport,"

That's a ridiculous statement. If the alternative is sitting in bars or eating donuts, then any form of physical training has to be better than that, even if one buys your highly questionable assertion that jiu jitsu is useless for defense or restraint. They're still going to be better at dealing with the criminal element if they do jiu jitsu than they would if they played checkers or tiddlywinks.

You could just as easily argue that WC is a poor choice for law enforcement. Cops tend to get into trouble if they chain puch the citizenry in the face or strike vital points with bil jee, or employ any of the supposedly lethal techniques of Wing Chun in a restraint situation.

[straight blast]

Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma (which I always point out as being a developmental training stance, not unlike a yoga posture and as we all know has been misconstrued by some as a fighting stance)

Wow...I guess Tsui Seng Ting is going to be really upset when he discovers that the Wing Chun Yip Man taught him was just a yoga exercise. Poor fella to waste so many years on such an effective fighting style. I'd hate to be the one to break it to him

[Merryprankster]

Rob Wolf is ignorant of grappling, and commenting on that which he does not know.

Anerlich is incredibly correct.

Paragraphs are your friends.

[Rob Wolf]

hey guys,
Dont take life so seriously, none of us are gonna make it out alive!!.......ridiculous, ignorant?? I think not ...Rob

[Merryprankster]

Actually, both ridiculous and ignorant, since you brought it up.

You have no need to worry about being taken seriously right now. I can assure you of that.

[apoweyn]

You have no need to worry about being taken seriously right now. I can assure you of that.

agreed. what a bunch of self-serving tripe.

first of all, i did read the whole thing. and as MP suggested, paragraphs are your friend. and ibuprofen will shortly be mine.

second, you were never interested in discussion. only acquiescence. look at this quote:

Do any of you feel that jujitsu tecniques typically go against Wing Chun theory as they plant you in akward , muscle /strength type of positions which usually have oneself lying on their backs or pulling/pushing with ones own hands and feet as well.

start the sentence with a reasonably impartial question, then finish it with a slew of 'evidence' as to why any reasonable person should agree with you. bad form. so ALL jiujutsu techniques plant you in awkward, muscle/strength type positions? right. that explains why so many of us have observed smaller, less muscular BJJ proponents (e.g., royce gracie) defeat larger, more muscular opponents (e.g., ken shamrock and dan severn).

and before you counter with the 'but that's not the streets' argument, it doesn't need to be. your assertion was simple that jiujutsu lands you in awkward positions that rely on strength. and we have clear and readily available examples against that hypothesis.

the rest of this is separatist nonsense. you want to keep your stuff separate from other arts, fine. but to my mind, that only serves to protect it from further analysis. and i don't think it needs that. if you feel that you can't reconcile two arts, then i feel that's a personal limitation. if you're saying you choose not to do so, that's fine. it's your choice to make. if you're calling for a whole community to tow that line, i think that's a fool's errand.


stuart b.

[Tap Man]

Sorry for the delay in replying to your post on another thread about my guys in the Excalibur fights. Not my guys competing but I do enjoy going to them. Although there are a couple of Wing Chun Schools here in Richmond and I don't recall seeing any of them, at least billed as WC. Of course I am probably mistaken but then again I did not notice any WC in MMA fights that I saw either. Speaking strictly on fighting styles and not on the outcomes.


I feel that Wing Chun and BJJ share a lot of similarities. To me if you look at the principles and concepts of each art they have a lot of similar themes. The one that stands out the most to me is the relaxing into the technique, and the leverage not muscle strength. The ground game of BJJ seems to me to be very much like Chi Sau, with the feeling and redirecting. The flowing from position to position much like the hand position variations in Chi Sau. Wing Chun Chi Sau has helped me to relax more while on the ground. My opinion only.

Tap Man Out

[Merryprankster]

Ok. I was just curious. There was a fellow that competed in an American Kickboxing match in VA Beach from a WC school somewhere in the vicinity.

Thanks for responding!

[reneritchie]

WCK does contain anti-seizing-and-locking (fan kum na). WCK does not historically contain ground fighting. BJJ does contain striking (atemi). BJJ does not historically use prolonged or exclusive standing striking as part of their strategy. WCK has concepts that can be employed on the ground. BJJ has concepts that can be employed standing. WCK is probably as good on the ground as BJJ is standing. Why? Lack of evolution. WCK benefits from generations of highly skilled stand-up fighters who have passed down their collective knowledge, just as BJJ has benefited from generations of ground fighters who have done the same. While you could arguably work out either from the one, it would entail re-inventing the wheel to such an extent as to be an inefficient use of effort (which violates the shared WCK/BJJ/Judo maxim of "Maximum results through minimun effort").

Martial artists, despite centuries of advice to the contrary from luminaries such as Sun Zi and Lao Zi are usually arrogant people who often underestimate that which is not theirs, and sometimes to their detriment. If you want to be good on the ground, learn from the best ground fighter you can. By contrast, if you want to be good at WCK, don't look up Carlson Gracie.

That's common sense that is, unfortunately, not to common.

(I would also go so far as to say it is *much* (much by an order of magnitude) better to do WCK and BJJ than it is to do WCK and Hung Ga, since the former utilize many of the same approaches (stategically and philosophically very similar) but are different enough in implementation so as not to cause fine reflex confusion (different focus in a similar manner). The latter two, however, are similar in form but *very* different in implementation, and are *far* more likely to cause body confusion (similar focus in a different manner).

To sum, paragraphs are in fact friendly, trolling is not, and anerlich and merryprankster double leg correctness.

RR

[rubthebuddha]

paragraphs are our friends, as are people like merryp and anerlich who know about groundwork and can keep us standup folks (yes, anerlich, i know what your primary art is) in check.

[anerlich]

Thanks.

MP is definitely the man when it comes to informed grappling commentary.

I was going to mention the paragraphs thing too, but there was so much other foolishness in the post to be refuted that it slipped my mind.

I think the post was a troll. At least I hope it wasn't a serious post.