Why have we yet to see a REAL CMA in the UFC?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by cagey_vet
skillful CMA body mechanics are different than grappling mechanics.
period.
so i wont bother to explain it, if you dont get it already.

And skillfull Tai Chi body mechanics are different than skillfull Bagua body mechanics. They're still both skillful CMA body mechanics.

Similarly, skillfull CMA body mechanics are different than grappling mechanics. They're still both refined biomechanical movement.

and yes, you need (among other things) philosophy to be complete to be considered a 'complete martial art'.

...by you.

there is a tacit understanding at least among advanced knowedgable practitioners of internal kung fu, that without
some sort of philosophical material to use for either inspiration,
direction, motivation or learning the art form, then the art is
not a complete one.

Really? What advanced practitioners? How widespread is that "tacit understanding"? And what makes it any more legitimate as a definition for all martial arts than a Krav Maga instructor telling them that their arts are incomplete because they don't include firearm training?

[MA fanatic]

First of all, this entire debate is pointless, because the winners of UFC and other NHB events have been TMA guys. Like I said earlier, bjj is a TMA. Why shouldnt it be? Other arts which had been successful in NHB are Judo, Sambo, Muay Thai, Luta Livre, Wrestling, and Pankration. In IL, 5 years ago, a Japanese Shidokan master won the No Rules Battle Of The Masters event. As for other traditional arts that lost:
-Ninjitsu fighter from Robert Bussey's Warrior International (I think the guy was actually a ninjitsu instructor) got clubbered by Mourice Smith who basically just used a simple mount and pound.
-Steve Jennum used Ninjitsu to win two UFC fights, but lost to Tank Abbot who had zero martial arts experience.
-Kenpo fighter Keith Hakney was impressive, but armbared by bjj Royce Gracie, and easily finished off by Marco Ruas in their fight. Marco also finished off Steve Jennum in Brazil.
-Faukner and Ziwicky, both Wing Chun stylists lost royally to grapplers. Both couldn't get off a single punch.
-Fred Ettish, 6th degree in Okinawan Kempo Karate, took one hit to the face by a boxer, and collapsed. Hey, at least he had the balls to get into the ring.
-Jason Delucia lost to Royce via armbar in UFC2, but Jason was also a student of Royce, after losing a challenge match to Royce (he actually challenged Royce at Royce's school before, and got trampled...see Gracie In Action tape #2...Delucia takes a beating).
-Mourice Smith, Sabaky challenge winner, lost in 3 minutes to Royce.
-Ron Van Clief (though I have the greatest respect for him), lost to Royce (who took it easy on his older 10th Dan apponent) via choke. Van Clief is the highest ranking TMA guy to ever enter NHB.
-Ichihara, was the Karate guy Royce armbared.
-UFC2 we had a perliminary match where a Penkak Silat guy was finished off by Remko Pardoe (Judo / Jiujitsu).
-Oleg Taktarov neck cranked a Kempo guy in UFC five.
-Severn choked out a Shorin Ryu 3rd Dan and dojo owner in UFC4.
-We also had a TKD fighter fight Paul Varelans in UFC 5, and get KOed. He later came back to get KOed by Tank Abbot.
-Kua Aluah, fighter from Hawaii got KOed by Tank Abbot in UFC5.
-Kua Aluah fighter also took a beating from a much larger Shooto fighter in World Combat Championships.
-A Kyoshu Jitsu pressure poin expert tried to connect with some meridians in UFC against Remko Pardoe (Judo/Jiujitsu). Pardoe finished the Okinwan stylist off in a minute. No problems.
-In UFC8, I believe that was the UFC from Mexico where Don Frye (boxer, wrestler and Judo artist), KOed a Pa Gua Chan (Thomas Ramirez)internal stylist in less than 10 seconds with one punch to the jaw.

You guys, I can go on and on. I'm only hitting the major events here. I can also mention the King Of The Cage events (where classical fighters frequenly enter and get creamed), Big Brawl events from Hawaii, Rings, Pride, and Hook N Shoot. The list can just keep going.
MA fanatic

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
Like I said earlier, bjj is a CMA. Why shouldnt it be? Other arts which had been successful in NHB are Judo, Sambo, Muay Thai, Luta Livre, Wrestling, and Pankration.

Not trying to be picky, what makes those arts CMA (CHINESE Martial Arts).

BJJ last time I checked can either be Japanese or Brazillian, depending on your viewpoint.
Judo = Japan
Sambo = Russia
Muay Tai = Thailand
Luta Livre = not sure
etc.

In your list you gave there were few Chinese Martial Artists that entered but quiet a few JMA and others.

Peace.

[MA fanatic]

Dragon: I'm sorry. I thought you guys meant Classical Martial ARts. Some guys also write TMA, which I thought stood for Traditional Martial Arts. My argument was that most NHB winners are actually Traditional Martial Artists who cross trained in other Traditional Martial ARts. AS for Chinese martial arts experts, you're right, my list has few.
MA fanatic

[Shadow Dragon]

MA Fanatic.

Not a problem.
Never heard CMA refered as "Classical MA" before, my bad.
Or maybe I mistook it as this forum is mostly chinese MA.

But I agree with your point that most styles used in UFC and similar comps are TMA or based on TMA principles.
And that MMA is simply a new term for cross-training in TMA of varying backgrounds and origin countries.

Now what tdoes MMA stand for again??
Mixed Martial Arts
Multiple Martial Arts
Manly Martial Arts
Money Martial Arts
j/k

Hmmm.

Peace.

[FatherDog]

MMA == My Martial Arts.

[Shadow Dragon]

Originally posted by FatherDog
MMA == My Martial Arts.

I prefer this one over Mixed Martial Arts,a s I think it truer to the essence of ALL Martial Arts pursuits.

Peace.

[omarthefish]

What's with the new acronyms? CMA has meant CHINESE martial arts for as long as I can remember. TMA for TRADITIONAL, not CLASSICAL. The whole side note about all these traditionalists being mixed is a red herring. I don't want to argue semantics. I want to FIGHT !

I know according to a theoretical definition most of us internal chinese stylists are 'mixedmartial artists' but who cares? What use is that terminology. MMA is only usefull as a term if it continues to mean the standard mix of boxing, thai kicks and some form of wrestling oriented style like Judo or greco-roman.

I'm gonna step up and say in all honesty why it gets on my nerves we don't see any TCMA in these NHB bouts:

'face'

Maybe I've jsut been in CHina to long but I feel the Chinese arts have lost a lot of face in these things. It's embarrasing. I avoided the Chinese stuff for the first 4 or 5 years of my MA career because I didn't have any faith in theit practicablity. Now, ten years later I'm still wondering.

I'm wondering where are these guys? I think it is a further embarassment to hear all the excuses and trying to say our methods really arn't that different. There's only one respectable thing to do. Step up and fight. I'm glad Jason Delucia is out there but dissapointed he's practically the only one and he's hardly taken the NHB world by storm.

I for one have made it my goal to participate in NHB events after I get back to America. I want to open a gong-fu school my self and can't respect myself doing it without some real fighting experience. I'm not up to beating on random punks in a bar so . . .

To this end some adjustments need to be made. Actually being in China is very helpfull. Not necessarily because of the supposed superior training but because financially in about 6 months I will be semi retired here and hope to have solved the time constraint issue. (It's not easy)

Full time training folks.

Weight training. Traditionalists seem to have a beef with it but I've yet to see a professional fighter who wasn't as heavy as his frame could comfortably support. I recently saw a picture of one of those old bagua masters who supposedly sent some Russian wrestling champ packing. The guy was big.

All styles look alike fighting? Yeah. To a degree they do. If you saw be applying bagua sparring it wouldn't look much different from boxing. Just heavy on the hooks, VERY active footwork and the rear heal wouldn't be coming off the ground when I punched. Different styles look different only to the degree that Mohamed Ali's and Mike Tyson's styles look different. Someone who's a student of the art can see what they do IS different, even if it's all just 'boxing' which is just English for quanfa.

[MA fanatic]

I think people overthink this MMA thing. MMA is just a sanctioned name for an NHB sport (A name like No Holds Barred had a difficult time being sanctioned and legalized in the United States). Brazilian Vale Tudo competitions have far less rules and protective gear. As for MMA, it is just an event. An event people train for. Most MMA guys have a traditional background. When these same guys decided to compete in an MMA event, they began cross training in ground grappling and full contact standup. The major arts which gave them that were Muay Thai and BJJ. This cross training had been done for centuries by many masters. Be they Chinese Martial Arts (CMA) masters, or Okinawan masters, or masters from Japan, cross training is nothing new. Just that now fighters have more of an avenue of cross training in various arts than masters in the olden days. But, like all athletic events, to succeed, one has to put in 100% of his time into it. That would mean stop practicing forms, no more self defense classes, no more point sparring, no more prearranged fight scenarios. One would just have to spar full contact and grapple with full resisistance. Many CMA masters are just not willing to drop all they are doing to start retraining. Plus, I think fighting in NHB events would mean facing certain truths about the effectiveness of various techniques and fight methods.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

Omar: If you're going to fight in MMA, I think you are to be respected. Your post makes much sense. MMA is in fact just an athletic event. But, these guys train all out, full resisitant, all techniques contested, and their conditioning is far superior than most martial arts masters. An average person enters a martial arts school to learn self defense. In American, martial arts have become a form of recreation. Something to do with the family after work. Masters realized that if they don't keep promoting people, people will lose interest in their studio, so masters created promotion tests every several months. Most students don't fail promotion tests, and keep moving on. Eventually these students are blackbelts or instructors or sifus, but are unconditioned mentally and /or physically. Soon these paper sifus open up their own schools, and teach what they know to others. The next generation is even weaker. All these people have to go on are stories of legends which may or may not have existed. MMA is different. A young guy enters a school which produced MMA fighers. His training is grueling. He begins to learn applicable strategies his first day. Within a month, he begins to spar. First light with some pro fighter, then full contact. He learns to grapple on the ground his first week. He grapples with all his techniques being contested by apponent. This is not training for recreation. These guys are not concerned about belts. They are concenred with taking their body to the limmit, conditioning, and winning a fight using strikes, throws, strangulation/choking, and joint manipulation. No belts, promotion tests, family Christmas parties, etc. etc.
MA fanatic
PS As for Jason Delucia, he did lose many times. He really lost royaly to Bas Rutten in Pancrase. But, he is a tough and respected fighter. I think he actually won some fights in NHB and Pancrase in Japan.

[Ryu]

MA Fanatic. The fighter you are referring to as "Maurice Smith" is in actuality Patrick Smith. No relation.

Maurice Smith was a Lion's Den trained kickboxing champ that KOed BJJ stylist Conan Silveira during EFC, and later went on to KO Mark Coleman (Wrestling and reigning UFC champ) in the UFC.

Maurice never fought Royce. At least on TV.

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

cagey_vet,

Sideswipe? I think not. You can be a purist without being a hubristic ass.

You specifically imply that MMA fighters and their associated ilk are unsophisticated rubes by writing that "CMA's are subtle, sophisticated and refined," and therefore not of interest to fans of MMA or the fighters themselves.

What you wrote is thinly veiled contempt for MMA fighters and those who train in MMA--exactly the sort of snobbery I was talking about. If this is the subtlety CMA has taught you, then what you are learning is subtle like a freight train.

Let me tell you what I learned about real artistry through years of being involved in music and cooking, and having friends who dance, and a brother who acted.

Real artistry leaves EVERYBODY who experiences it--regardless of the senses used to appreciate it--breathless. Its genius is that it moves EVERYBODY, not just those who are elitist snots.

I need not be educated to appreciate the Mona Lisa, Pablo Pascal's mournful O Vos Omnes, or the magnificence of a perfectly cooked and seasoned consomme.

[Liokault]

Well i always thought that the Mona Lisa was over rated.

[KC Elbows]

I agree with Merry, and would like to add that TMA aren't in the ufc because ordinary mortals just wouldn't understand. There's just something sublime that occurs every time a kung fu man snaps another human being's bones that is too subtle for your average person. The kung fu man knows that he could kill the entire auditorium full of people, and the tv audience still would not grasp the subtleties, the sheer sublime artfulness of it all. Essentially, mixed martial artists are like the guys wearing fezes and vests who ride around parades on mini bikes, wereas the kung fu fighter is like the guy wearing a fez telling world leaders what to do or else they'll sic the sacred geometry on them. Totally different.

That's what you were trying to say, right merry?

[Merryprankster]

Exactly. Except we don't have those little bikes. We ride tricycles.