Why have we yet to see a REAL CMA in the UFC?

[Xebsball]

Delucia did some type of kenpo, as some 5 animal dudes had pointed on a thread some time ago.
Luta Livre is from Brazil
The vale tudo in brazil today is not like the old school, it has more rules and equipament. As a matter of fact, vale tudo just got outlawed in some cities.
All the "kung fu" guys ive seen on MMA so far completely sucked, and i mean it. I can find better in my crew, easily.

[Cipher]

I love MA, I love Kung Fu. But as much as I hate to say it I think the problem with a lot (Not all) CMA people is the training habits they form, being narrow minded like not learning a different style or from different people. Like a place I used to work at I knew a few guys that took Kung Fu at another place than I do. They said that people could only go if they were invited and that you the teacher gave you a test to see if you are worthy to train with them (ie. sucker that agrees to not share the secret dragon tenique) one of then even wanted to show me a certain move they learned but said I had to close my eyes so I couldn't see what he was doing, needless to say inside I was LMAO. The guy was actualy a pretty good fighter, he went into a few local NHB events and did good.

As someone else said above, a big part of what I mentioned is also due to a lot of the Kwoons and dojo's being more familiy related than you would see in a lot of MMA places. When I first started MA in TKD that was a great example, we only did light contact point sparring maybe 30 minutes a month, compared to sparing every time we work out is a big difference, so needless to say I got out of TKD pretty quick, not to say all TKD places are like that but I'm sure you get the drift.

[SevenStar]

"That would mean stop practicing forms, no more self defense classes, no more point sparring, no more prearranged fight scenarios. One would just have to spar full contact and grapple with full resisistance."

Not true. There is a LOT of drilling involved and sparring is not always full contact.too much full contact on a regular basis is hazardous. Pre arranged fight scenarios are there too. They teach you to flow from technique to technique.

if you've got knee on belly going for an armbar, he turns over, control the arm and kimura. He's strong and grabs his wrist to counter, then you bicep crush...etc. learning techniques in a series helps to make you flow better when you roll.

[omarthefish]

The subject has been raised already but I think I underestimated it's importance untill I mentioned this thread to my girlfriend. She's chinese, we're in China.

As a NATION the Chinese are WAY more concerned with practical ways to make a living than we are. While online I forgot how nearly EVERYONE here is going nuts trying to figure out how to get rich. Going in for an NHB contest is something you gotta be pretty **** high up the standard of living scale to even contemplate. I a typical Chinese fighter somehow got permission from the U.S. to enter the country for a fight he's be ecstatic . . . over the chance to improve his english and maybe extend his stay long enough to get into a school here, immigrate, send money back home.

When I bought up the subject of a sanda fighter going abroad to fight in some tournement outside of his official circuit, she burst out laughing.

The other problem is that even the professional wushu schools have divided the curriculum to make traditional arts completely divorced from fighting. It's all very specialized. I think you could see ferocious Chinese NHB fighters but first the govenment would have to decide it was a matter of national face and then tell all the wushu school to open NHB curriculums and then wait for the next crop of 14 year old begginers to mature in another 5 or 6 years.. .

[MA fanatic]

Ryu: Yes I did mean Pat Smith, not Maurice Smith. Acutally, I like Maurice's fighting style.

As for MMA guys being unsophisticated, that is plain funny. I think their knowledge of techniques which actually work is years ahead of an average CMA sifu. I think it's an excuse when I hear that in China, there are masters who would destroy any NHB fighter, but they don't have the money to travel. I am pretty sure that should any CMA master contact a Pride, Rings, King of the Cage, UFC, etc. etc. promoter, he would be flown over to the United States to fight. The problem is, most CMA guys know where they stand. They will simply lose no matter what the rules are. If we ever see CMA stylists compete successfully in MMA events, it will be a guy who had trained in Kung Fu, then cross trained in Muay Thai and grappling. Someone like Kung Le who also grappled for a few years would be very successfull in mma competitions. That will give the CMA community the opportunity to say they have a champion.
MA fanatic

[friday]

MA Fanatic

i think your post lacks a cultural or political understanding of how things work in China and also once again has many comments in it that i've mentioned before involves a lot of own personal opinion, subjectivity and speculation.

discussion of many of the things you raise is futile and also appears one minded. if u want to see the skill level of the fighters in China are. go there for a visit and test skills there. if they really aren't that good i'm sure u can start a new trend there.

I have nothing against MMA etc as my previous posts state. but there does seem an unhealthy obsession with the fact that few CMA appear on events such as UFC, pride, etc and this implies that CMA isn't good. when u say that if a CMA does do well in these events they must've trained in different MMA as well. and then the CMA community will latch onto them calling them a a CMA hero and proof that CMA work. this is really circular reasoning and doesn't look like any outcome will benefit CMA image or change your mind on it.

like yourself, i do not agree with people who say kf is the best and the be all and end all of martial arts. i myself tho' not interested in competing atm is pursuing an active interest in trying to mix it with other styles including BJJ, kf styles, judo, etc. by mix it i mean learning about other styles etc and learning to apply my own stuff against them. u might call me soon a MMA as well depending on how u define it. if u claim to be great with what u know whether its kf or not - be prepared to get tested.
however, i do really dislike the lumping together of good and bad kf ppl in one group and saying that they would all be defeated and stating that this is the reason why they don't appear in western NHB matches.

friday

[friday]

btw my post isn't intended to suggest that u can't state your opinion etc MA fanatic. after all this is why this thread was begun to ask why CMA don't appear in NHB matches that much.


friday

[Lowlynobody]

Please feel free to post links to clips or pics of your fights in UFC, Pride, king of the Cage or any other NHB events you have compeated in.


Lowlynobody.

[jon]

Just a thought...

IF i wanted to start compeating NHB comps.

I dont think i would have enough access to sparring partners of multiple backgrounds at my own school, I would have to look further a field. I try to spar the other guys of my level as reguarly as i can but there is only a few of them. Plus sifu doesnt look on it to kindly when i start challenging every new student to fight within there first months of training. Possibly i could get some sparring practice out of other schools but if i need to compete i have to do this reguarly. Im not sure the other schools will appreciate me rocking up just to fight once a week.
So what do i do? Well i guess i need to join a gym that actualy trains fighters for this style of competion and has lots of other blokes all with similar goals whom i can test my skills with.

I find a good 'MMA' gym which is basicaly simply a place where a bunch of guys get together and spar and try to get in shape for various competions. They fight as a team with several training in each of the various weight catagorys and there is a real sence of team spirit about the place. Feels great, everyone is open minded and learns from each other and all of us are always willing to test out something new.
After spending twelve months with this gym and working out everyday with there guys im finaly be starting to feel ready. I could possibly have a shot at a competion.
Would it be fair on all my new training partners if i listed my school as my previous training hall? Especialy considering i would likely be compeating as part of this particular schools tean. Do you think they would be happy if i just convieniently forgot about them and said i was purely a CMA stylist?

So i compete in a MMA event and i get knocked out in the second round. Its pretty disapointing so i go back to work training. Another six months go's by and im ready again. This time i win in the first round using a submission hold i picked up off one of my training buddys.

Now you tell me, what am i now?
MMA or traditional kung fu man? Or maybe just maybe im just a guy who learns to fight by whatever means are most valuable to the situation at hand.

Its a silly argument, if you want to train for MMA comps you have to get to know the rules and how the competions work and then train accordingly. To do that you really need to join a school where that is there focuss.
You could also say why dont MMA guys do very well in traditional forms competions. Or how many of them can still move with the same energy and intent when there in there later years.
MMA focuss is MMA competion, no point trying to beat them at there own game unless you train that way yourself.
You also do not see many marathon runners winning the five hundred meter sprint - dispite them both being runners.

[omarthefish]

MA Fanatic,

Like Friday said, you seem to lack the cultural and political understanding. It's not just a matter of travel money. Every day at the U.S embassy in Beijing there is a line of about 200-300 chinese waiting for a 1-2 minute interview with a visa officer to get permission to travel to the U.S. Most of them arerich Chinese with contacts abroad, work offers, acceptance letters to American universities etc. Every day about 2 or 3 get aproved and the rest need to wait at least 6 weeks before they can try again. Typically they are required to wait about 6 months for another chance to apply.

This is not the iron or bamboo curtain, this is the American government's requirement that each and every visitor from china must somehow demonstrate they have no intention to emmigrate. Between the application fees the travel to and from Beijing and the cost of their stay in the U.S. only the wealthy chinese can even try and they mostly get turned down by the U.S.

This is because most of them DO wish to emmigrate.

My girlfriend laughed at this topic because while there are many of us western practitioners of CMA who feel gong-fu is losing face in these things, in China:

1. They havn't even heard of the NHB circuit, let alone give a ****.

2. If you tell a chinese martial artist about it, it just pales in comparison to the simple excitement of going abroad. so they still don't care.

I brought up the subject with one of my gong-fu brothers today and he lit up at the thought of my wanting to enter the fight circuit. "And if you could do it IN CHINA you could prove something" he added.

So there is also this ethnocenticism. All of the historical examples of great Chinese fighters defeating champions from other countries involved other countries sending their champions here to prove Chinese MA was worthless. What you do in your own country just doen't mean anything to a typical Chinese gong-fu man.

[MA fanatic]

Jon: That's is exactly what I said in one of my posts. MMA is not an art, it's a competition. Actually, don't think about the UFC when you think MMA. Rent or purchase (they're only 12.99 each) Gladiator Challenge, Hook N Shoot, and/or King of the Kage events. You'll see plenty of fighters from Kung Fu, Karate, Judo, Kempo, etc. etc. Certainly if you want to win in a MMA competition, you have to train in schools which have a curriculum designed for those competitions. I trained for a few years at a gym which taught Muay Thai 6 days a week. On Tue, Thursday and Saturday there was an instructor who taught Shooto and BJJ.
Late night there was a guy coming in to teach a JKD/Kali class 4 times a week (a guy certified by Dan Inosanto) while Muay Thai guys and grapplers had open mat. We had a weight room also for weight and extra cardio. Once again, a person can take the classes, engage in sparring and/or grappling. If you wanted to compete, you had to chose MMA, submission grappling, and/or Muay Thai. ONce you had a tournament in mind that you wanted to enter, one had to put in 6-8 of 6 days a week training. If you miss one of the days during these 8 weeks, you were not allowed to compete using that gym's name. WE had guys cross training from Wing Chun, TKD, Hapkido, etc. etc. Everyone was respected. Certain a person can enter an NHB arena with only Wing Chun for example. But that would be like a ground grappler entering a Tai Chi push hands competition with ever trying pushing hands excersises. He may have great sensitivity and ballance, but he'll still lose because the competition format is different and conditioning required is diferent. That same Push Hands expert would be taken to the ground at will in a wrestling or Judo tournament.

Omega, I myself came from a socialist country. My parents waited for years to leave Russia. I didn't think the same applied to professional athletes who could promote Chinese martial arts. Recently we had Chinese Shaoline Monks (so called Monks...but actually Wu Shu guys) travel the U.S. I also know of Chinese martial artists competing in Japan. I'm sure if there is money in it, many promoters would love to set up an NHB event in China (as long as it could be televised or taped in the United States). A gym I trained in sent fighters to compete under San Shoue rules to China. Out of 7 of our guys, only 2 won their match. I think an NHB event would be facinating and sponsorship would not be hard to find.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

Omega: You sound like a tough guy. I am not a CMAist, but you could do Chinese Martial Arts more good if you figure out a way of having some Western NHB talent fight in China. Seems like it is an untapped territory. I'm sure some MMA guys would love to travel to China and fight. They wouldn't even ask for a lot of money to do it. If you yourself are planning on fighting using CMA,
good luck. I'd also rent some Gladiator Challenge videos or order them through Sun Coast Video. You'll see some Chinese martial arts experts fight.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

As for CMA only being good in China, that shouldn't be a factor of why CMA fighters were not successful in MMA. To say that CMA's effectiveness can only be proven if you fight the Chinese, is like saying to truly say that you defeated a Sambo fighter, you have to travel to Russia. Or, if you truelly want to say that you defeated a Thai boxer, one has to do so in Thailand. There are plenty of tough CMA guys here opening schools and running businesses. There are also Chinese CMA masters here who claim to have had numerous victories in brutal fights in China. True, these masters may be too old to fight, but, Helio Gracie doesn't fight himself either. Carl Gotch doesn't grapple anymore in the ring.
MA fanatic

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by omarthefish

As a NATION the Chinese are WAY more concerned with practical ways to make a living than we are. While online I forgot how nearly EVERYONE here is going nuts trying to figure out how to get rich. Going in for an NHB contest is something you gotta be pretty **** high up the standard of living scale to even contemplate.

That's what sponsorships are for. You don't need big money to compete in local MMA. you do that to get your start and to get noticed. then you move on to bigger things. A few of the guys in my club fight, and none are rich. One of them fought in the last Revolution championship in vegas, and Revolution paid his way there, so he really didn't have to spend much at all. If you do well at the smaller, yet still big competitions, like revolution, people will notice you. Our guy was actually invited to Pride. there was some complication with his opponent though, who wouldn't sign the contract.

The other problem is that even the professional wushu schools have divided the curriculum to make traditional arts completely divorced from fighting. It's all very specialized. I think you could see ferocious Chinese NHB fighters but first the govenment would have to decide it was a matter of national face and then tell all the wushu school to open NHB curriculums and then wait for the next crop of 14 year old begginers to mature in another 5 or 6 years.. .

Who currently fights in sanda? If they are already fighters, couldn't they fight nhb? you don't need to wait for beginners to mature - can they not take the willing adults? particularly the sanda guys.

[Martial Joe]

4 main reasons i just thought of.

no specific order...

Dont cross train alot.
Dont train hard enough period.
Dont care.
They are at a watered down school.