The history of Thanksgiving

[respectmankind]

"You didn't know that Islamic armies waged war forcing people to convert or die in the same way the Catholic Church did? Hell they're still doing it :P Modern day Islamic nations don't have freedom of religion and kill/jail people who have different ideas of worship. Hmmm.... sounds familiar" - aside from that whole, not killing them if they didn't convert, and actually letting them persue their own faith. sorry to wake you up, if it did. history, learn it.

[Ryu]

"To judge a past moral position that is identical to the present practice does not require revisionism."

KC Elbows is correct.
(To claim that past elements cannot be judged by modern standards is a bit silly no matter if you're talking about science, philosophy, morality, psychology, or theology.)

..... THIS JUST IN! AMERICA'S GREAT!!!




Here's the real truth...

[Merryprankster]

Missing the point...

I can judge the actions--but is it fair to the historical figures to judge the persons themselves? I would argue that except for obvious cases of inhumanity, it is more difficult to do that. Of COURSE slavery is wrong, but, was Jefferson a bad man? I don't think it's fair to indict him when he was following the common practices of his day and peer group.

I am not accusing KC Elbows of the following, but I am rather tired of the constant reviling of Western Culture, and the U.S. in particular as though somehow the current "poor" (something else I don't agree with, hence the quotations) state of affairs is historically the fault of Euro-derived cultures.

re: smallpox blankets--no different than chucking dead animals or corpses over town walls during a seige. A common practice in European warfare for ages.

I was reminded of this thread when I was reading an article on a white visitor to a Navajo reservation. The author made a point which I wholeheartedly agree with. The early white americans regarded the natives as savages, and it is currently en vogue to view them as spiritual guardians of the earth, faintly superior to those who identify more heavily with Western Culture. The truth, of course, is somewhere in between.

And so it is with history. An honest review demonstrates both dishearteningly awful and astonishingly great acts on the part of individuals and entire nations, with the majority of the acts somewhere in the middle.

My initial comment was just a bit of exasperation leaking through.

[Ryu]

I can judge the actions--but is it fair to the historical figures to judge the persons themselves? I would argue that except for obvious cases of inhumanity, it is more difficult to do that. Of COURSE slavery is wrong, but, was Jefferson a bad man? I don't think it's fair to indict him when he was following the common practices of his day and peer group.


Ah, okay. I agree with you then, Merry. No, I don't think it's fair to simply label Jefferson as a "bad man" because of the past norms and culture. Though yes, being able to judge the action or the culture itself as 'bad' is an important ability to me. (at least having that option to look at)

"I can judge the actions" is all I really wanted to hear.
We're on the same page.

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

You and I agree?

Never happen...

[Ryu]

The world must be coming to a close.....

There can be only one of us. I challenge you, NAGA master!
I'll kick your butt!! ............... uh... at Playstation..



Ryu

[Merryprankster]

LOL!

It's a good thing you're on our side Ryu....

[KC Elbows]

"I can judge the actions--but is it fair to the historical figures to judge the persons themselves? I would argue that except for obvious cases of inhumanity, it is more difficult to do that."

I can agree with that.

"Of COURSE slavery is wrong, but, was Jefferson a bad man? I don't think it's fair to indict him when he was following the common practices of his day and peer group."

I could agree to a point, except where we accept his peer group as any sort of norm whatsoever. The founding fathers made up such a tiny group, to relate them to any norm is stretching the truth a bit. More of our culture was defined by the groups involved moreso than any one lone individual, even where that individual held power.

Using that same logic, I can exonerate those of the wealthy class who take advantage of loopholes to pay less in taxes than they rightfully should. Despite the fact that they do not make up even a tenth of the population, they are not the norm, and the only reason they do so is because they think that it is their money, even though they benefit from their country more than other groups.

Why must I exonerate them? Because, I must exonerate those in China before the Manchu's that did the same, weakening their country by taking from it without giving until their northern provinces became easy pickings. Because it is the same thing, I cannot judge those doing so now. Yet, I know it is wrong, and bad for my country, so I can also assume that the same went for China, and hell, I'll just call a spade a spade and chalk it up to greedy *******s in both cases.



"but I am rather tired of the constant reviling of Western Culture, and the U.S. in particular as though somehow the current "poor" (something else I don't agree with, hence the quotations) state of affairs is historically the fault of Euro-derived cultures."

I can agree with that too, though I don't tire of hearing it when it is constructive criticism. For instance, I think that only the hopelessly naive think we are good regime builders, so maybe, just maybe, we should consider either working on that skill, or not pretend it's our forte when we go into regions. At the same time, I think we are vital for the world economy. There, one bad point, one good. Everyone's happy, right?

Thanksgiving is still the devil's holiday!

"re: smallpox blankets--no different than chucking dead animals or corpses over town walls during a seige. A common practice in European warfare for ages."

Those blankets weren't chucked over the walls. They were given out as 'charity'. Still not the norm, even then. Especially when compared to seiges, where everyone knows who the enemy is, they're the guys outside the walls.


"I was reminded of this thread when I was reading an article on a white visitor to a Navajo reservation. The author made a point which I wholeheartedly agree with. The early white americans regarded the natives as savages, and it is currently en vogue to view them as spiritual guardians of the earth, faintly superior to those who identify more heavily with Western Culture. The truth, of course, is somewhere in between."

Again, completely agree.

"And so it is with history. An honest review demonstrates both dishearteningly awful and astonishingly great acts on the part of individuals and entire nations, with the majority of the acts somewhere in the middle. "

Look here, Mr. Fence Sitter, you're either for Thanksgiving or you're against it. Where do you stand? And what about the crusades? Answer the question!

[quiet man]

against whoever was America-bashing this time... Oh that was it, must have been that savage comment about
You silly Americans with your silly holidays

(DISCLAIMER: I have now deleted part of my post, because I had written it prior to reading all that was said here, and because of that, I said something I wouldn't normally have said. It wasn't anything offensive, as those who have read it already know - it was just wrong things addressed at the wrong people. I apologize for the inconvenience and for being an idiot :-))

To the citizens of USA,

Since those are my words, I feel I should say something. First of all, I don't do politics (not in this forum, anyway), and second, I don't do offensive language (not here, not anywhere). I have my opinions (on many things :-)), but I don't express them uninvited, and I certainly don't diss ;-) people. I'm not an America-hater (nor an America-lover), coz USA's just too big to be hated or loved as a whole - it has its good and bad characteristics alike. To cut a long story short - I was trying to make a joke (as indicated with two (2) smilies). So, feel free to "boo" me on account of bad sense of humour, but don't go accusing me of "America-bashing" or "savage comments" - you'd be very much wrong. I'm sorry if I offended you or your national holiday (it was never, nor'll it ever be my intent to do so), but perhaps you shouldn't get offended so easily. Thanks for listening.

CSN - LOL on "Please don't hit me!"

[eulerfan]

"Of COURSE slavery is wrong, but, was Jefferson a bad man? I don't think it's fair to indict him when he was following the common practices of his day and peer group."

Jefferson is a personal hero. I think he was the most genius our Presidency has ever seen. One of my favorite quotes was by JFK having a meeting in the white house with all these heads of state. He said something to the effect of, "I think this is the most intelligence gathered together in this room since Jefferson dined here alone."

It is unfair to expect great men to be completely infallable. I think it's very short sighted to assume he kept slaves because everybody else did it. To think that made it okay for him. I can back this up if necessary, I'd just have to stop by the library. He admitted to knowing slavery was despicable. Of course he knew. You'll have a hard time finding brilliance equal to his.

He was raised with it, he was used to it, he depended on it. It's really hard to give something like that up. It was weakness. I think it is possible to allow the man some weakness.

There are only so many battles a man can fight in his life.

But, he owned human beings. You think he wasn't highly aware of how fu(ked that was?

[eulerfan]

quiet man,

I was raised overseas and continue to hang out in international communties. Taking sh!t about your country of origin is just par for the course. It doesn't matter where you are from. People will mock it. It's just an easy subject for jokes. Americans are the only ones I know who get uptight about it. I think it might be because we're sort of cut off over here. We're not used to it. So the humor isn't always so obvious.

I am sure I could say worse than you did to Serpent or Taoboy about Australia and they wouldn't actually get angry. Let's see.

HEY SERPS, you know your country is full of criminals, right? Ya d@mned convict.

[KC Elbows]

Quiet man,

You just said in one lengthy paragraph what what Mat was saying in his short one. That some americans were a little touchy, considering how tame a comment your's was.

Eulerfan,

Cool info on Jefferson and slavery. That's sort of the question: at what point was it clear it was wrong? After all, if having peers that agree is all that it takes for past figures to suddenly become beyond reproach, then Hitler is going to be represented as a stand up guy in the history books of tomorrow.

God how I love blowing things all out of proportion.

[quiet man]

eulerfan,

I agree with you, but there's just one thing: IMHO, the humour will be obvious if you label it with smilies, as I have done. And again, I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else - I never wanted to do that. Personally, if someone talks trash 'bout my homeland, I take time to examine his words. If he's right, then I shouldn't get upset, and if he's wrong, again, why should I get upset if someone talks through his a$$? I let it pass. But that's just me, and somebody else might get angry. It's not my place to judge other people. I apologize.

KC - yes, I know. Like I said: "First I write, and then I read this thread". My fault. Me idiot :-(.

[KC Elbows]

"KC - yes, I know. Like I said: "First I write, and then I read this thread". My fault. Me idiot :-(."

You actually read the threads? I gotta try that sometime. I just close my eyes and type. Pretty good, eh?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by eulerfan
HEY SERPS, you know your country is full of criminals, right? Ya d@mned convict.

Actually, a study just released has England and Wales as the highest on the ladder for crime density in the world. Which is ironic, considering they thought they'd sent all their crims over here!

Besides, it's what makes us tough and rugged. Of course, in Texas, you just kill anyone that might be a criminal!