choy lee fut is not choy lee fut.....

[bean curd]

joe seph oh i mean serpent - it gets so confussing.

i said - " to finish off, if you really want to find the truth as i have said to you on many occasions, give me a time, date to meet in HK and it will all be forth coming - how much plainer can a statement be !!!"

now show me where i am squirming siu tung.

[Fu-Pow]

Bean Curd-

I believe you are referring to the hungkuen.net forum where I asked you that.

Out of curiousity might I ask what branch you are from and who
your Sifu is?

If this information has already been posted please forgive my ignorance.

[bean curd]

fu pow,

you may ask, however i am waiting for your answers to my questions, why the delay??

[Fu-Pow]

So are you saying that you are not going to answer my question?

You know what branch I'M from and who MY Sifu is, so I think it is only fair that you reveal that much about yourself before we continue.

Especially in light of the fact that you have criticized me in the past for not revealing MY true identity. The least you can do is provide us with this most basic of information.

To be fair I think that extrajoseph should provide the same level of information....ie branch and name of Sifu.

You might think I'm stalling but I'm not. It's simply bad strategy to engage in argument when you know nothing about your opponent.

[SETANSI]

FROM THE WEB PAGE OF SIFU SAM LEE
FROM THE LKH LINE OF CLF

History of Hung Sing Choy Lay Fut

The birthplace of Choy Lay Fut was in the county of Futsan, Guangzhou province, China.
Chang Heung was a village teacher who was known to be proficient in Martial Art and he taught in the Chan Clan of King Mui village in Sun Hui county. One day a young Martial Arts enthusiast by the name of Jeong Yim was introduced to him. Jeong Yim was in need of temporary abode and Chan Heung took him in. It was said that Chan secretly imparted his knowledge of the Choy and Lay Kar fighting techniques to Jeong Yim, as strict traditional clan rules forbid him from doing so openly since Jeong Yim was an outsider.

When the village elders discovered this secret years later, Chan had to send Jeong Yim away. He gave him a letter of introduction to a Shaolin Monk by the name of Chi Cho (Green Grass) at Mount Bakpei. (Chan was supposed to have gone under the monk for study in the Shaolin fighting art years ago but due to some reasons, it did not materialise). The monk accepted Jeong Yim as his student.
He not only mastered the Shaolin Palm techniques but also acquired knowledge on the use of herbal medicine from the monk. Before his departure from Mount Bakpai, the Monk gave him an alias.
He was to be known henceforth as Jeong Hong Sing - with the implied meaning that the Hong (Hung) Moon (Triad Organisation of that time) would "Sing" - triumph over the Ching Government.

Upon his return to the village, Jeong Hung Sing awed the villagers with his skill and was received warmly by Chan. Jeong Hung Sing reciprocated his teacher by sharing his newfound skill with him. They accorded each other with the respect as fellow disciples and began to synthesise the fighting skill from the three different schools of Choy, Lay and Fut (Buddha).

The art which they referred to as "Fut Kar Zheng Zhung" - meaning, the origin of Shaolin.

Every school of Martial Arts has their own unique form of salutation. The founders of Choy Lay Fut developed a series of fast and successive movements as the Choy Lay Fut salutation. These movements with esoteric names were personifications of a poem, which contained revolutionary sentiments. The poem consists of four stanzas with a main character in each stanza. When the four characters were stringed together in sequence, it would read "Overthrow the Ching, restore the Ming"

The founding of Futsan Hong Sing Koon

The name Jeong Hong Sing became synonymous to Choy Lay Fut. The first ever Hong Sing Koon was founded in 1839 by Jeong Hong Sing in Futsan county of Guangzhou province. Among his choice disciples were Chan Ngau Sing, Lei Yan, Tam Lup, Lui Chan and many others.
There were soon more than a dozen branches of Hong Sing Koon in Futsan county as the fighting art gained wide recognition. The popularity of this Martial Art spread to other counties and cities. Many Martial Artists from other schools came to challenge Jeong Hong Sing. They were all defeated. Some became his students; other left with bruises and a bruised ego.

The death of Jeong Hong Sing

The popularity of Choy Lay Fut eclipsed the names of many other Martial Art schools in Guangdong. It created much displeasure to the Martial Artists of other schools because it affected their livelihood.
One day Jeong was ambushed by a group of armed men at the pier where he was to board a boat to the Chan Village. He recognised some of them as Martial Artists he had defeated before. A fierce fight ensued as Jeong used the oil-paper umbrella he was carrying as weapon and put up a good fight.
Three of the assailants were dead and a number of them wounded as the rest of them fled. Jeong was badly wounded as he staggered back to Futsan Hong Sing Koon.
He died from his wounds shortly after.

Regionalisation of Choy Lay Fut

Chan Hau Shing and the rest of Jeong's students went on a rampage in Futsan to seek out their teachers killers. Those who were responsible for the incident went into hiding and in desperation, some of then sought refuge with the Manchu government.
They charged that Futsan Hong Sing Koon was the headquarter of anti-government activities. That led to a clamp down on Choy Lay Fut practitioners and the closure of Futsan Hong Sing Koon.
Jeong's students scattered and successfully spread Choy Lay Fut throughout China.

[Fu-Pow]

Froim the other thread where you posted this article:

CLF Nole wrote:


Setansi:

"His story is similar to the one LKH told us however Chan Hueng was considered a founder. This is in LKH's book as well. Lee Siu Ming has a slightly different lineage for us on his site than is what is generally recognized to be our actual lineage.

Stories and lineages vary throughout LKH's students, so that in itself shows that nothing is "100% known".

Peace.

[SETANSI]

YES I READ THAT.
BUT GETTING BACK TO THIS THREAD ...

YOU ASKD BEAN C. WHERE HE GETS HIS INFO.
I POSTED THIS BECAUSE YOUR SI SOOK HAS THE SAME THING ON HIS WEB PAGE

AHEM-The art which they referred to as "Fut Kar Zheng Zhung" - meaning, the origin of Shaolin.

WHEN WAS THE NAME CHOI LAY FUT FIRST COINED? ANY OF YOU HISTORIANS KNOW WHEN THE FIRST TIME THE TERM CHOI LAY FUT COULD BE FOUND IN WRITTEN RECORDS? I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.


FU POW WHERE YOU AT THE WONG TAT MAU TOURNEY?
JUST INTERESTEAD

PEACE AND GOOD WILL INTENDID

[Fu-Pow]

No...I didn't attend the Tat Mau tournament. I wanted to but I found out about it after I'd already made plans for that weekend.

Guess I'll have to show you guys my Sao Chui some other time....

WHEN WAS THE NAME CHOI LAY FUT FIRST COINED? ANY OF YOU HISTORIANS KNOW WHEN THE FIRST TIME THE TERM CHOI LAY FUT COULD BE FOUND IN WRITTEN RECORDS? I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.

I have another perspective other than the one's we've discussed.
It's that CLF is really an almagam of 5 different styles. Hung, Mok, Choy, Li and Lau? .

In other words, it is an almalgam, a kind of "best of" the 5 family styles. And also it has no clear origin but perhaps has several origins as the techniques from these family styles were compiled and re-compiled.

Someone from outside this debate told me this version of the history.

So the name CLF might not really be in reference to any particular style but rather is a legacy of Southern Shaolin kung fu. And hence the similarities to Hung Ga. CLF absorbs all of southern kung fu. It is a kind of "wushu" from the 1800's.

And so this is why it is not called Chan Ga which would seem more appropriate if Chan Heung had really "created" the art. It would also explain the large differences between teachers and lineages. CLF has the ability to absorb influences from all the southern styles, because it is all the Southern styles.

Just another perspective.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by bean curd
joe seph oh i mean serpent - it gets so confussing.

i said - " to finish off, if you really want to find the truth as i have said to you on many occasions, give me a time, date to meet in HK and it will all be forth coming - how much plainer can a statement be !!!"

now show me where i am squirming siu tung.

It's funny how you think that because we have very similar views that Joseph and I must be the same person. Pretty poor accusation to fall back on when you're running out of ammo. Check the IP's. We're not the same person.

I don't even know who Joseph is. I have my suspicions, but I don't know for certain. And if he values his anonymity, then I respect that. It doesn't detract from his readily apparent knowledge of the subject.

As opposed to other loudmouths who shout and holler about who they are (when they are, in fact, pretty inconsequential) and then, when the debate starts to turn away from them, they simply say come and talk face to face or come to Hong Kong or come and tell my sifu that, etc. In other words, they squirm away from the debate with chest thumping and posturing.

Siu tung.

[SETANSI]

SERPENT IS THE NAME JO JO HAS GIVEN TO HIS TALKING (PHALIC) MEMBER.
SOME PEOPLE TALK OUT OF THEIR A$$
JO JO IS MORE UP FRONT ABOUT IT

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SETANSI
SERPENT IS THE NAME JO JO HAS GIVEN TO HIS TALKING (PHALIC) MEMBER.
SOME PEOPLE TALK OUT OF THEIR A$$
JO JO IS MORE UP FRONT ABOUT IT

Whatever you reckon, Setansi. Personal attacks and groundless accusations are a poor way to defend your argument. Still, I guess that's because your argument has more holes than Swiss cheese.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by SETANSI
FROM THE WEB PAGE OF SIFU SAM LEE

Upon his return to the village, Jeong Hung Sing awed the villagers with his skill and was received warmly by Chan. Jeong Hung Sing reciprocated his teacher by sharing his newfound skill with him. They accorded each other with the respect as fellow disciples and began to synthesise the fighting skill from the three different schools of Choy, Lay and Fut (Buddha).

The art which they referred to as "Fut Kar Zheng Zhung" - meaning, the origin of Shaolin.

To me, the above passage quoted by Setansi does not say specifically that the original name of CLF was not CLF it was fut gar jing chung. It merely referred to the art as being having an authentic Shaolin origin.

May be someone from the Sam Lee school can clarify whether their teacher believed that the original name of CLF was called "Fut Kar Zheng Zhung" or not and why.


Bean curd,

You still have not answer my request for proof to support your statements.


Setansi,

Serpent and I are two different people. Your personal attacks are tasteless and I expect a better effort from a creative poet like yourself.

[regulator]

first of all, posting from 2 different IPs does not mean you aren't the same person. it just means two different IP's were used to post, nothing more.
secondly, why is it that you remind me of the little kid behind the bully, always stirring up the sh1t?
it's like when fu pow or jox comes to argue about something, you jump out of the shadows as if to say "YEAH! WHAT THEY SAID!" and reaffirm your agreement with their statements or something...
if YOU can't contribute something useful to the discussion or at least join in , then stay out of it. hell even though i agree with some of the arguments against joseph and fu pow, you don't see me jumping up every time someone says something and saying "YEAH! SO THERE!" like some annoying second-rate sidekick.

[Jamesbond_007]

Originally posted by regulator
first of all, posting from 2 different IPs does not mean you aren't the same person. it just means two different IP's were used to post, nothing more.

Nothing more huh?
If you know anything about networking or how IP addressing works then you would know that IP addressing is done in a hierarcy. Each continent is assign an IP range, this range is broken down further to countries, and then to ISPs, and this information regarding what ISP has what block of IP address and where in the country that IP address came from is avaliable on the Internet. So before you make any accusations do some research on where the IP address came from and where it is located.

[regulator]

firstly, no accusations were made in that statement, i merely disproved the assertion that 2 ip's meant 2 persons.
please read what i write before you decide i'm making accusations.
secondly, while i am aware of the IP addressing ranges assigned, you should also be aware that IP addresses are in no way an indicator of where a person is posting from, as the enlightened user can work around the simple limitations you have mentioned. hax0rs have known and used this for quite some time now.
at any rate, my point is that 2 different IP addresses do not prove two seperate identities, and it stands.