Would you follow your opponent to the ground?

[ShaolinTiger00]

and you were a wrestler.

[fa_jing]

Good point about slamming vs. the guard. If you have enough strength, a la the Bob Sapp / Minotauro fight, except on a hard surface.

If the flow of a takedown gave me an advantageous position, I would follow and use my basic knowledge of positioning and strikes on the ground, against an unknown opponent. I might try a choke, eye or groin clawing, but definitely no fancy arm breaks. If he managed to pull something like a guard I would try to elbow my way out...

[ShaolinTiger00]

NOT saying that I am better than a comparably trained bjj stylist
but I'm aware of the same things.

-Good. Gotta start somewhere.

I would like to suggest that a competant martial artist in any
system should (should!) be aware of body mechanics. Anything
anyone can do with their body can be read by someone skilled
enough to read body movement. In a random situation you
DON'T know what any particular person is capable of so it comes
down to reading their body movements and making the best
judgement call that you can.

- While in theory I think you are 100% correct, the reality of a situation doesn’t give you time for such analysis. Adrenaline dump, heart thumping, legs shaking, tunnel vision. While you be able to still recognize telegraphed movements or in grappling, feel a weakness in his base, you’re still on autopilot…

I would like to add that if I had someone fully hooked up in my
double leg that I would sure as hell be trying to make them
unconscious or at least mightily stunned with the impact of the
fall. Might not do it but I would go as far as to sacrifice myself
to a minor injury to get their head to the concrete first.

- as a wrestler turned sanshou player turned judo/bjj player, There is one thing I know – throws/takedowns and the aftermath- falls.

You’d be very surprised at how difficult it is to knock a guy out with a throw. Throw to control and either “mount him” for control or while standing make a choice to run or to finish what you started.. don’t throw with the expectation that it will KO him. You’d be better off with a swift uppercut or palm strike or a neck strike eye jab to stun him.

Nice talking to you Matt.

Btw : your footer; trick question. Pie IS heaven!

[Oso]

Adrenaline dump, heart thumping, legs shaking, tunnel vision.

Isn't this happening on both sides?

you’re still on autopilot…

true, but that's what we are training for: the ability to have our
style work whether we are thinking about it or not.

You’d be very surprised at how difficult it is to knock a guy out with a throw.

Not at all, I know it is rare to improbable to count on a KO but
I'll take even a split second of a stun after a throw to count it
as a succesful throw.

Good talking to you as well.

Btw : your footer; trick question. Pie IS heaven!

ahhh...PIE (moment of silence for all the pies slain in the past
few weeks)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Good point about slamming vs. the guard. If you have enough strength, a la the Bob Sapp / Minotauro fight, except on a hard surface.

If the flow of a takedown gave me an advantageous position, I would follow and use my basic knowledge of positioning and strikes on the ground, against an unknown opponent. I might try a choke, eye or groin clawing, but definitely no fancy arm breaks. If he managed to pull something like a guard I would try to elbow my way out...

nothing fancy about arm breaks, really. you just take them if the opportunity there. alot of times, those are accomplished easier than chokes, as people tend to leave their arms available if they have no grappling experience.

if you're in someone's guard, I'd reccomend getting out first, not elbowing. stand up and slam him if you can elbows are short range, and guard can be used to control distances, in addition to him trying to control your arms so that you don't hit him.

[Royal Dragon]

I think he meant to use elbows to facilliate the escape.

[neptunesfall]

if i'm fighting an opponent and they're on the ground, it's from me executing a sucessful sweep, trip or throw.
if i've done it correctly, i'll either have control of an arm with them on the ground, or they've landed on their face/head/neck.
if i have the arm, there's the set up for an arm break or other attack.
if they've landed on their face/head/neck, most likely there isn't going to be much more of a fight.
either way, i'm getting out of there asap.

[Oso]

If the poor bloke hasn't just up and given me the arm bar/break
then I like to start small circle and work into it...a finger lock to a
wrist lock to the elbow to the shoulder...again, that is if I am
fighting for the control and a lot of that depends on the pain
control of the opponent...breaking something doesn't always
finish the fight. Also, you reliquish some control of the opponent's
body when you break something...you can no longer control
their skeleton from beyond the break. You can of course control
them with the pain of having the broken bit twisted around a
whole bunch.

the pinching, grabbing, twisting and elbowing I've been talking
about were not intended to finish anything...just attempts to
create advantage. My ultimate goal would be to get out if
that was the most advantageous tactic at the time.


Also, there is a 3rd area of chin na besides joint and muscle
manipulation: Cavity Press. This requires a higher level of
experience and skill to apply...a level I am not exactly at but
some of those targets are also on my list of places to grab.
I could get lucky

matt

[scotty1]

Without having read the whole thread, I possibly shouldn't post, but in answer to the question: in a self defense context, if my opponent was going to the floor I would think "job done: and leg it.

I don't know sh!t about ground work and would never go there willingly.

[JusticeZero]

Originally posted by Oso
>Adrenaline dump, heart thumping, legs shaking, tunnel vision.
Isn't this happening on both sides?

Why would you ever want to count on the assumption that the other guy doesn't have a complete immunity to adrenaline problems, three knives, two guns, friends with rifles a block away, and the entire police department of the city on his payroll?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by JusticeZero
Why would you ever want to count on the assumption that the other guy doesn't have a complete immunity to adrenaline problems, three knives, two guns, friends with rifles a block away, and the entire police department of the city on his payroll?

D@mn, you know too much about me!

[Oso]

who say's I'm not the one with comlete zenlike control over
my self?

Plan for the worst.
Always.

That really wasn't what we were talking about, anyway.

Matt

[fa_jing]

Yes, I meant apply pressure with the elbows to the insides of the thighs, I think there's a pain point there that will encourage them to loosen up on the guard. About arm-breaks, I know they're not that difficult but I am inexperienced there - I know how to do the most basic variations but couldn't necessarily pull them off when it mattered - my best success on the ground has always been achieving favorable position and then striking.

[red5angel]

hmmm, I can't think of a real good reason for following my opponent to the ground. Now I have a superior position, I can use my feet on all his vital parts while the majority of my own are out of reach.....

[ShaolinTiger00]

A hypothectical addendum to the original post.

Let's say he's either hopped up on PCP etc., or is suffering from mential illness,
Both being delusional and aggrressive.

You want to restrain him so that he doesn't hurt others, yet do not want him to be severely injured in the process.


just a thought...