Feints and Deeks

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"is it wasted movement to use feints when it could be used for actual striking?"

i would say definatley yes. i'm a firm believer that setups/feints are great, but dont just throw something out there thats not going to do anything. why do that? bad. what if you would have got lucky and the feint would have hit them? what if it would have hit and then your second hit doesnt work and then they stab you in the throat and finger fu ck the hole? see that would suck.

i agree with fury that small movements like a twist of the hips could be effective (very effective in sparring) but i still doubt that i personally would use them in a fight.

[yenhoi]

feints and attack by drawing are advanced issues.

feint isent necessarily a movement at all, you just need to convince the opponent enough to react hopefully the way you predicted. It can be a glance, a sleight drop of the shoulder, or just altering a pattern or rhythm you have established, you can also create fake habits, or know your habits, and use them against the dude paying atttention to them. Feinting is really just knowledge of broken rhythm. Feints are also very important when it comes to progressive indirect attacks (basically when you begin an assault on one open line, and the reaction to that - such as your opponent closing that gate, opens another line that you have already pre-planned for.)

Attack by drawing is opening a line for the opponent to hit you, then taking him out when he bites.

By all means, if you CAN hit someone, then do.

Red5: you will be surprized what a 'newbie' will do when you start doing things like, waving your hands in the air screaming etc.

[red5angel]

"Red5: you will be surprized what a 'newbie' will do when you start doing things like, waving your hands in the air screaming etc"

LOL! There is this guy at the school I am attending now that will do this monkey dance thing when a new guy gets in the ring with him. Ususally, either his opponent starts laughing or locks up in utter confusion and the guy goes in for the kill, otherwise it can back fire and he sometimes finds himself on the ground wondering what happened! Either way it's funny as hell to see!

[MightyB]

I can't say how useful they are on the street, but feints are good for sparring. Especially if the guy's got good skills. I don't use them often, but, when dealing with someone with a solid defense, they will open holes. If you're in the midst of a sparring session and the guy's been blocking and countering everything, you can throw a feint and follow it quickly with the real thing and usually nail 'em. I never feint without following with something real and I make my feints real (if that makes any sense).

[Ming Yue]

wait, a real feint? Isn't that like jumbo shrimp?

is that where you are absolutely not faking that you're gonna fake?

No really, are you saying your feints connect - like a jab (whether foot or hand)? Are they still intended to misdirect and not cause definitive pain themselves?

Me personally, if I see that I can connect, I'm going for it...

-C

[red5angel]

Ming yue, can't remember if I said this earlier but in wingchun while doing chi sau, I sometimes use contact feints, especially if my opponent seems extra sensitive.

[Ming Yue]

I use taps to mislead an opponent in chi sau at times....

when feinting, I usually don't go so far as to make contact with my opponent, but you're right about the difference between working with an experienced fighter vs. inexperienced -- that's what determines how and when to fake em out. You may be able to freak a newbie with a simple twitch, or if you have to make significant contact with a low kick to get someone to drop a hand.

[red5angel]

MY, and what you say makes some sense to me as well. I was just thinking about how one who considers themselves seasoned might respond to no contact feints, probably by not overcommitting right? So then some contact would probably have to exist for you to get a good fighters attention?

[Ming Yue]

Possibly by not overcommitting, but if you're fighting someone very experienced and you twitch, chances are they'll see that you're not committed early enough to grab you or take advantage of your lapse. You'd have to be mighty fast and follow it right up with something serious.

I'm not ultra seasoned, but I have a little pepper goin' on, and If I see somebody twitch a little, I'm not gonna drop my guard, mostly because I'm not afraid to absorb a blow if it means I can get in a better bigger one.

If you know your opponent is inexperienced and you really want to win (as opposed to friendly "we're learning" class sparring) I've just stomped my foot and gotten a complete drop of both hands.

[neptunesfall]

i don't use feints. if i throw something out there, it's either going to connect to the target, smash through an attempted block, push your hands out of the way, sucessfully get blocked or redirected or whatever.
i like working in combinations and having each aspect of the combination full power.
being my size (5'7", 150ish lbs), i can't afford to give opponents the time to get any advantage so i constantly use the big guns, so to speak.

[red5angel]

"being my size (5'7", 150ish lbs), "

but your picture is so BIG!!!!

[lotusleaf]

I use feints consistently during sparring. I'd drop a shoulder or feint a front kick by just raising the knee a bit then stepping in to do a straight blast to the head. I'm more proficient in feinting w/ my hands than my legs, but that's a skill I have to work a lot on. My favorite is to fake a jab w/ the lead hand then throwing a ridge hand or hook w/ the same hand to the side of the head. Kicking feints are harder for me as my leg speed isn't that great. Lately I've been working on a front heel kick that leads into a side kick using the forward momentum of the initial kick. This works well around the abdomen area.

As for deeks, not really. The usual sidesteps and slips and weaving of the upper body. I have to get used to ducking w/o raising my arm to block the attack.

[fa_jing]

If your opponent is intimidated (such as myself when I sparred my sifu) then those body twitches will work, otherwise you're just giving him a chance to do whatever it is he does. It's basically passive. On the other hand, I liked to perform combinations of techniques that serve the same purpose as feinting. Say, a double jab, with the emphasis on the second jab. Or sometimes you'll throw something slowly with the intent that your opponent block it, then you take advantage of the opening. My first instructor said there's no feints in Wing Chun, "because everything works." In other words the techniques are designed to succeed, not fail. However, I do employ some of these tactics nowadays. Even Wing Chun lends itself to combos where the emphasis is on the second hit/target, for instance I'm sure that Red5 has trained a low lead punch, the opponent blocks with Gan Sao and you use that energy to bounce off into a whipping punch to the head while checking the opponent's lead arm with your other hand. The point is that if the opponent doesn't make the block, though, you stick them in the first target.