loop holes,//farewell

[extrajoseph]

Wise words from Abba Eban but unfortunately it takes a lot of time, energy, pain and human lives to exhaust all the alternatives.

It took an A bomb and millions of lives to stop WWII and if man’s irrationality can deny the Holocaust, Evolution and the earth being round, it can easily deny Chan Heung.

Dave Lacey has no idea the monster he let loose when he preached segregation of CLF, we will pay for his indiscretion for a long time to come. The CLF family will never be the same and when we fight each other we will be like goats taken to the slaughterhouse. No one will win.

A gloomy thought for a New Year of the Goat, but Anton’s posting now (argue for argument sake) and Hiram’s “Jeung Mun” post earlier (a deliberate public attempt to discredit Chen Yong-Fa) doesn’t give us much hope for a peaceful future.

Sadly, that's life too. We'll never learn.

[SETANSI]

Where has there been a case for the seggragation on clf been made on Sifu Lacey's web site?

This argument started after yik wah tic and Sifu Lacey reprinted the history of the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon as it has been told word of mouth since it was founded in 1839. Afterwards some CLF politicians on this forum said that this history was BS and that the Green Grass Monk did not exist. A position that was then taken 180 degrees around when same politicians said ggm does exist and now is the teacher of Chan Hueng.

The stink of your politics makes me ill please practice diplomacy instead

"Politicians are just like diapers. They need to be changed often--and for the same reason." (unknown)

[Fu-Pow]

"on, ditty, on, ditty, on...the sh1t don't stop until the break of dawn."

Give it a rest fellas....for God's sake. It's like someone running their fingernails on blackboard....FOR A YEAR STRAIGHT!!!!!!!

Let's make beautiful music instead of keep on blowin' on the same sour note.

It's a new year....a new day...lifes too short to waste it away arguing with ghosts in front of the computer screen.

Carpe diem my friends.

What if today was your last day?

...would you waste it away on such idle chit chat.

[SETANSI]

I concur; perhaps my last post was not clear. May be this will help-
One more quote for the day
• "A diplomat is a man who thinks twice before he says nothing" ...... Fredk. Sawyer
That said I have nothing else to offer, and now back to ******* and his virtual sow chui

[SETANSI]

Does ******* Diaz have a stalker here why cant you say ******* on this forum?
Camer0n is that pc?

[Serpent]

Neal Cameron was a convicted sex offendor that used to post here. In an effort to stop people going on about it, the great KFO censor uberlord added his name to the list of censored words.

With regard to the debate, much as it pains me to go over it again, the whole GGM thing is a bit out of context.

Originally the "Chan family story" (as it seems to be perceived) was that there was no known entity called the Green Grass Monk. Subsequently new evidence came to light that said that Green Grass Monk was actually a nick name of Choy Fook, so those people took that new evidence on board. The only change to their story was that Choy Fook was also known as GGM, nothing more. Hardly a 180 turnaround as you suggest.

[extrajoseph]

Frank and your Sifu Lacey are big on “word of mouth” history. If it were only verbal, how would they know that the Futsan vesion of history went as far back as 1839? Just on elders like Lun Gee, Kong Hing and Tsui Kwong Yuan (all Buck Sing) say so?

If you bother to read my earlier posting on this thread, you will find there is a clear written evidence that as recent as 1997, Futsan HSG did not mentioned the GGM or Jeong Yim co-created CLF with his teacher Chan Heung.

A diplomat has to be a politician by definition, so a politician cannot be diplomatic without knowing the politics involved: The new Futsan HSG, with the help of the Cultural Department (Tourism is part of cultural activities in China), was trying to attract the tourist dollars by promoting Futsan as the birthplace of CLF, so they thought they could change history with their new “research” to coincide with their 150 years anniversary and the re-opening of the school in 2001. Frank got feed this information and started to blow his trumpet, we had a go at him, then your Sifu Lacey got onto the bandwagon in a big way and the rest is history and we have not stopped since.

What is so funny is that we fought each other like dogs and cats so they could make a few extra dollars.

So let me say it one last time, contrary to your Sifu Lacey’s assertion, no one at present, or in the past, is trying to put Jeong Yim down, he was a great martial artist and he was one of the best of “open the mountain sifus” (Hoi San Sifu) for CLF. The Chen Family (it seems everyone who is not Buck Sing or Futsan Hung Sing is Chen Family these days) is not trying to take his credits away from him, they couldn't even if they wanted to. BUT there is no evidence whatsoever, either in history or in MA contents, to suggest that he could have co-found, let alone created CLF.

You guys got no legs to stand on except you keep on saying, “This is what was passed down to us by word of mouth”. So why don’t we just agree to disagree and stop this charade right here and right now and get on with our training instead. How about it?

JosephX

[Fu-Pow]

concur; perhaps my last post was not clear. May be this will help-
One more quote for the day
• "A diplomat is a man who thinks twice before he says nothing" ...... Fredk. Sawyer
That said I have nothing else to offer, and now back to ******* and his virtual sow chui
Report

Who is *******? Ooops...I mean who is Camer0n?

[Diamond Talons]

Deny evolution. I'm surprised at you XJ & what is there to deny by any but those who preach such nonsense with huge holes in their theory & I don't have but some small school & even I see this thing. If you want to claim monkey as relative you go right ahead & take bunches of bananas for your family & for me I am a man always. Earth is round & we have proofs most would say yes to & Nazi's killed many peoples & we have proofs most would say yes to & evolution just theory, opinion & not fact & for a person who often makes sense it's odd you make this mistake. Maybe you make it in other things too XJ & I touch hands with lots of CLF guys as young man & they ****ed tough fighters & noone says lineage stuffs one just say I go as hard as you go & the other answer back the same & then we do it.

[yik-wah-tik]

in regards to the green grass monk, he never had anyscars on his head and if he did then someone would have mentioned that same as they did for choy fook.

in regards to written or oral history, once again many of the southern chinese were illiterate so could not write history. they were surviving culteral revolution after cultural revolution from the opium wars to the japanese invasion. the hung sing members were heavily involved in their attempt to overthrow the chings, as well as protect their country.

when it comes to the chan family, they have admitted and publicized that it was chan yiu chi who wrote the family manual, and not chan heung himself. so being said, where are any documented proof from the 1800's that chan heung created choy lee fut. where is the actual physical proof that chan heung used hung sing before jeong yim. all this proof must be written and approved by people of that era. not a couple of generations later.
if generations later wrote the history of their ancestors someone will attempt to glorify their lineage as much as possible in an attempt to keep the memory alive. i was told by some elders that the history of clf as written by au hon chun. much of the history was written by chan family members, and that is why this controversy continues because we have our side and they fight it. but somewhere down the line someone said if you can't beat them......join them and that is why the chan clans stand on ching cho forced them to change their history. i emailed darryl choy himself and he sternly told me their were no mentions ever of ching cho in family scripts. these are family scripts and i am sure someone must have examined them with a microscope. and what almost 200 years late they have found the missing link to ching cho..........it was choy fook all along. SURPRISE!!!!! chan family got one over on us, they were going to tell us someday!

eye witness accounts are crucial in an investigation and everything else must be proven. written history must always be questioned, as well as the writer himself and his loyalties. the history was never recored by unbiased writers. they always are of the chan family. but the hung sing people now have people to tell our story and it will be told with interuption. joseph and his split personailities ask for us to prove our point with evidence.
well, this goes out to each and every chan family member on earth, this is our hung sing story, if you don't like it......."prove us wrong!!!!!" we have nothing to prove. you will not stop our history from being told as we see it. and the only thing you WILL DO is come back to this forum and ***** and complain about what so and so wrote. just like doc fai wongs book got you fools fooled. fools!

so i will take first hand knowledge from grand elder lun chee-student of tam sam and who is still alive today. according to him chan heung only taught jeong yim calligraphy and literature therefore earning the name sifu. but those who are afraid of losing their position will make the most noise. as you all still can tell i have never told you my version of the hung sing history and you will. but you are not my audience. keep your eyes out!!!!!

[Fu-Pow]

Frank-

You keep claiming that you're gonna come out with this surprise revelation or story or whatever and yet you've never produced a god**** thing for us to look at. Stop with this nonsense...enough... you're just making yourself look worse.

Either tell us "your" history here and now or forever hold your peace.

I'm starting to feel like I'm scolding a 5 year old here !

[Serpent]

Frank, who the hell is Darryl Choy in regards to CLF? He's no more authorised a source than you are.

And as the Chan Heung story is the one generally accepted and the one that has been told all along, then you are the one trying to change things and the onus of proof is yours.

You're really making this worse and worse for yourself.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by yik-wah-tik
so i will take first hand knowledge from grand elder lun chee-student of tam sam and who is still alive today. according to him chan heung only taught jeong yim calligraphy and literature therefore earning the name sifu. but those who are afraid of losing their position will make the most noise.

Frank,

If you ask Lun Chee about the Dong Tay (Eastern Embankment) incidence just before the WWII in Guangzhou, he will tell you he defeated Lee Tao from Boon Tong Ngan Gwoon soundly in front of hundreds of people. Afterward he became very fond of the Ngans and always have a good word to say about Chan Heung because the Ngnans studied with the Chan Family.

Your quote: "eye witness accounts are crucial in an investigation and everything else must be proven. written history must always be questioned, as well as the writer himself and his loyalties. the history was never recored by unbiased writers."

So when it comes to Lun Chee and you, there is only one eye witness to that incidence we should believe in, what was written from other eye witnesses is wrong. So according to you, eye witnesses are not biased only writers are biased, and living people don't tell lies, only dead people do.

You have a sense of logic as good as your sigung Lun Chee when he said Jeong Yim only learned caligraphy from Chan Heung.

[iron_silk]

Hung Sing is an off shoot of the original way back during the first generation of students. Any elders or claims they have is heavily potentially bias.

Buk Sing is an incomplete off shoot of Hung Sing couple of generations down. Why would any of the elders be considered an authority on lineage of CLF. Also due to their origin from Hung Sing would heavily influence.

Some Hung Sing branch actually agrees with Chan Family history of Chan Hueng (Despite the theory of GGM)

Surprisingly enough Hung Sing branch has had emotional out bursts over the net over WHAT? considering there was no attack from the net to them.

Also the improper misuse of current masters of Hung Sing branch in America.

The only funny is the Frank wasn't the one abusing the name of well known masters...or has he?

I WANT TO SEE FRANK CLAIM A CHAN FAMILY MEMBER TO FINALLY HAVE ENOUGH AND COME OUT TO SPEAK OUT FOR THE HUNG SING BRANCH AND DENOUNCE CHAN HEUNG AS ORIGINATOR BUT MERELY AN INSTRUCTOR TO JEONG YIM. (I wrote it annoying style)

"Chan Hueng as First master of CLF" what the heck does that even mean? ha ha ha ha

[CLFNole]

Iron_Silk:

To say that buk sing is an "incomplete off shoot of Hung Sing" is really not a good thing to say. Although I am not a Buk Sing practioner it is not good to denounce their style.

Just because they may not have a vast number of forms doesn't mean they have an incomplete branch. Buk sing is well-known for its fighting effectiveness and Tam Sarm was known to have done a great deal with the use of the chop choy.

"Hate the playa not the game" as Stuart Scott of ESPN says.

Peace.