Wing Chun vs Bagua

[yuanfen]

I think we are all in agreement about this.

((yes- talk-and listening to others alonecannot tell you what you can do))

The best thing to do is to make friends with other styles and try it out first hand.

((Next best thing to becoming proficient in and with wing chun.
There is a real danger in the watering down of wing chun-resulting in the spreading of bad wing chun))

But unless you feel it first hand, don't think you know enough to discuss in theory how you could beat it. (Not you personally, just in general)

((Some truth to it- but not complete. The guy in front of me is a guy in front of me- I dont classify him as a bagua, hsing I, bjj,
stylist---wing chun teaches defending oneself from any angle-the guy in front of me is energy in motion- you can give it a name but you dont have to))

I'd really like to get your take on this "circular" thing. I think people are just repeating what they heard and taking the "wing chun" party line.

((Wing chun party line- what is that? There is no pope, no commissar no catechism in wing chun))

All CMA are circular.

((Far too general a characterization))

What does that mean and why is that different from other martial arts?

((Involves judgement calls- each his own. For me- wing chun provides a very comprehensive set of principles for any phase of martial activity))Joy

[TjD]

i definately would not call wing chun circular. it comes straight from the ground. the hips may rotate and the arms may rotate, but the bridge still goes out straight. its like a wedge.

[count]

Next best thing to becoming proficient in and with wing chun. There is a real danger in the watering down of wing chun-resulting in the spreading of bad wing chun

Still, if you don't try out your theory against other styles, how will you know if you are right?

Wing chun party line- what is that? There is no pope, no commissar no catechism in wing chun

Oh please, the only thing you guys discuss on this forum more than how to beat other styles is which lineage is more pure. Who is closer to the source. Wing Chun party line is so well known because it's debated so publically.

Far too general a characterization

Circular is not too general concept to discuss. It is an exact description of an approach to fighting. It is what makes CMA different from other martial arts styles.

The original poster (mtod1), heard from a "bagua stylist", that bagua was a circular style and wing chun had difficulty with circular styles. I think before he can know "theoretically" how to overcome bagua he should first know "theoretically" what is a circular style. Personally I think Wing Chun is a pretty circular style too.

Originally posted by TjD
i definately would not call wing chun circular. it comes straight from the ground. the hips may rotate and the arms may rotate, but the bridge still goes out straight. its like a wedge.

I don't even know wing chun but I know it's circular. It's circular because it is continuous. Not round like a circle but never ending like a circle. One technique ends where another begins. The fingers turn into a fist into an elbow, shoulder...A punch turns into a lock, into a throw...Never stopping until you finish...

A linear style is a straight tempo like block, punch, kick, punch. Tae Kwon Do is a linear style. I know. I know, spinning kicks go around in circles, crescent kicks go around in circles, so what? They show everything. Kung fu hides everything in continuous circles.

Now if you want to talk about power, it doesn't come from the ground, it comes from your body. Short power doesn't go all the way through your body either. It starts from just above where you hit. Get over the myth that power starts in the leg and comes from the ground. It starts in the middle and pushes out in both directions. What do you think all this fuss is about your Dan Tien?

The only reason I posted is because you guys were discussing my style. I never post over here because I have no reason to get in between all the internal squabbles. I have little use for understanding your styles training methods or your styles history. Face to face is another story. But since people were commenting on how bagua fighters fight I thought it might be helpful to add my perspective. I'm not offended by your comments about beating my style. I'm sincerely trying to help you here. I do get offended by the myths and misconceptions that circulate about bagua. That we walk around in circles and hit with our palms. that we read the I-ching and are an internal art or a soft style. All of that is bull****. How do I know it's bull****? Serious study and comparison with other methods. Listening to people that know about there styles with an open mind. And putting it to the test. Until you do that it is all just theory.

[yuanfen]

Good post Count- see comments in brackets.,,, after snips from your post-for context.
--------------------
Yuanfen,

Still, if you don't try out your theory against other styles, how will you know if you are right?

((i did not advocate- not trying out wing chun against other styles.
If my experiments werent satisfactory, I would be doing something else,))

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing chun party line- what is that? There is no pope, no commissar no catechism in wing chun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Oh please, the only thing you guys discuss on this forum more than how to beat other styles is which lineage is more pure.
(((Precisely- there is no pope to certify heaven))

Who is closer to the source. Wing Chun party line is so well known because it's debated so publically.

((No because it doesnt exist- listen closely to the great diversity))

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Far too general a characterization
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Circular is not too general concept to discuss. It is an exact description of an approach to fighting. It is what makes CMA different from other martial arts styles.
((You are right, if we use your conception of where the circles are---
but the circle/line dialogs here oftenuse differring definitions as happens in debates))

The original poster (mtod1), heard from a "bagua stylist", that bagua was a circular style and wing chun had difficulty with circular styles. I think before he can know "theoretically" how to overcome bagua he should first know "theoretically" what is a circular style.
((Was not me- I dont care who is in front of me- I use wing chun))

Personally I think Wing Chun is a pretty circular style too.

((Depends-lots of shapes in good wing chun))





I don't even know wing chun but I know it's circular. It's circular because it is continuous. Not round like a circle but never ending like a circle. One technique ends where another begins. The fingers turn into a fist into an elbow, shoulder...A punch turns into a lock, into a throw...Never stopping until you finish...
((Using that conception of circle-yes))



Now if you want to talk about power, it doesn't come from the ground, it comes from your body.
((Relationship between both IMO))

Short power doesn't go all the way through your body either. It starts from just above where you hit. Get over the myth that power starts in the leg and comes from the ground. It starts in the middle and pushes out in both directions.
((Many different engines of power and linkages in transmitting that power))

What do you think all this fuss is about your Dan Tien?

((???What fuss. Dan tien is important- but there is more to good wing chun than the dan tien))

The only reason I posted is because you guys were discussing my style. I never post over here because I have no reason to get in between all the internal squabbles.

((I enjoyed your posts))

Face to face is another story.
((true for many))

But since people were commenting on how bagua fighters fight
((Not me))

I thought it might be helpful to add my perspective.

((Welcome and helpful)) joy chaudhuri

[TjD]

Originally posted by count


I don't even know wing chun but I know it's circular. It's circular because it is continuous. Not round like a circle but never ending like a circle. One technique ends where another begins. The fingers turn into a fist into an elbow, shoulder...A punch turns into a lock, into a throw...Never stopping until you finish...

A linear style is a straight tempo like block, punch, kick, punch. Tae Kwon Do is a linear style. I know. I know, spinning kicks go around in circles, crescent kicks go around in circles, so what? They show everything. Kung fu hides everything in continuous circles.

if thats how you define circular then i definately agree, however i think a better description of that is continuous. calling it circular misleads people into thinking about the shape circle, and the path something takes - which is where the misunderstanding arose. especially considering most, if not all tools in wing chun move in a straight line.

as to power coming from the dan tien, while conceptually different, it means the same thing. however, you cant have good wing chun power without the ground - therefore it is a requirement, and thats where the power comes from. the legs may push from the dan tien, and the arms torso may as well, but without the ground, your legs do nothing and you lose a lot of power.

[KenWingJitsu]

Oh please, the only thing you guys discuss on this forum more than how to beat other styles is which lineage is more pure. Who is closer to the source. Wing Chun party line is so well known because it's debated so publically

Other than my initial response, this is the most correct statement on this thread so far

[anerlich]

Count,

I was using "circular" in terms of the trajectory of techniques and the use of angular momentum, rather than the continuous nature or otherwise of the styles. And also, as you alluded before, to the turning and revolving nature of the techniques and footwork, your 360 degree centreline if you will.

Circular trajectories and use of angular momentum are not unique to Bagua or absent from WC or say, Xingyi, but they are popularly seen as a mainstay of the system.

A legendary mainstay of Xingyi and Bagua is the fight between a master of each system, the previously unbeaten Xingyi master challenged by one of the progenitors of Bagua. The match went on for three hours or days or some such, after which thgey called a draw, the two became busom buddies and made a pact that the two styles would be taught together from then on, hence the close relationship between the two. The complementary nature of the "straight line" Xingyi and the "circular" Bagua was something remarked on by Robert W Smith way back when and by many other commentators since.

This is a popular view of Bagua, espoused by many supposedly knowledgeable Bagua practitioners, so I would encourage you not to heap scorn on the ignorant, rather to educate them.

The use of straight punches and straight kicks and the mechanical efficiency of "a straight line is the shortest line between two points" are commonly touted as key advantages of WC, be that right or wrong. The WC marketing has it that anyone attacking us with circular techs is taking a longer path and leaving their centreline open, therefore we will always win.

If only it were so simple and easy.

Choy Li Fut, which is often portrayed as WC's arch enemy, has techniques which follow circular and spiralling trajectories design to crash through or snake around the WC guard without allowing the WC guy to form a decent bridge from which to respond.

A lot of WC guys who do notihng other than chi sao and defending against other WC guys end up in trouble against stylists who use boxing short hooks and roundhouse kicks effectively, because they have been brainwashed into believing these techs are inefficient and this never practice seriously to overcome them.

While there is longtime rivalry in HK between the two styles, they are in fact highly complementary, maybe like Xingyi and Bagua though I agree that's a bit of a stretch. My first instructor has been teaching a mix of WC, CLF and Bok Pai Sil Lum since 1969, very effectively.

As for your criticism of WC discussions, you're right if somewhat uncharitable. Many Taiji and other neijia discussion forums are not that dissimilar, however.

Personally, my first instructor was an eclectic stylist and extremely proficient. He also tried very hard to foster sharing with other styles and schools in the area and encouraged his students to look outside. He ruined me as a stylistic purist from day one.

After several years with him, I moved cities and after several attempts to hook up with training partners which went nowhere, I took up Xingyi/Bagua with a guy in Sydney who was extremely knowledgeable (a China-qualified acupuncturist as well) but had some personality issues which made him a poor instructor. I nowattend a WC school and have done so for nearly 14 years, but in reality the curriculum includes boxing, kickboxing, modern weapons and a heavy emphasis on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as well.

I'm in 100% agreement that to learn to deal with other styles you have to go out and and work with them. There's no substitute for experience.

Nice to see a fresh perspective on this forum.

[count]

Thank you all for the interesting discussion. I should visit here more often. A few questions for you Wing Chun guys/girls(?) who aren't seeing my point yet, and than some exchange.

TjD, if most all techniques in Wing Chun take a straight path, than what is the the reason in chi sao(?) for arcing around a circle with your opponent? And what about throwing techniques?

And if power depends on the ground what does Number four in your signature mean? What do you do when you are on the ground for power?

KenWingJitsu, I don't disagree with what you say but surely I made a few points that made sense to you? I would add that I totally agree with your initial statement, but you could be more forthcoming with some advice based on your own personal experience?

Yuanfen, isn't the Dan Tien your physical center where power comes from? Don't you focus on strengthening it and storing energy there in Wing Chun? Don't your hits and kicks come from there?

Can you describe how wing chun foootwork is different?

Anerlich, there are some myths and misconceptions in your post too, but you make a lot of sense. I appologize for my somewhat uncharitable attitude, you are not mistaken about lineage arguments in all styles. I try and avoid those lineage disputes and answer with truth from experience and not from some legend I heard or something I read in a book. But my intention is to be charitable and share some concepts from bagua that you might face in a fight.
What style of bagua was the teacher teaching you? Did he have fight training or was it mostly drills, forms and applications?

[quiet man]

Originally posted by count
Thank you all for the interesting discussion. I should visit here more often. A few questions for you Wing Chun guys/girls(?) who aren't seeing my point yet, and than some exchange.

TjD, if most all techniques in Wing Chun take a straight path, than what is the the reason in chi sao(?) for arcing around a circle with your opponent? And what about throwing techniques?

And if power depends on the ground what does Number four in your signature mean? What do you do when you are on the ground for power?

KenWingJitsu, I don't disagree with what you say but surely I made a few points that made sense to you? I would add that I totally agree with your initial statement, but you could be more forthcoming with some advice based on your own personal experience?

Yuanfen, isn't the Dan Tien your physical center where power comes from? Don't you focus on strengthening it and storing energy there in Wing Chun? Don't your hits and kicks come from there?

Can you describe how wing chun foootwork is different?

Anerlich, there are some myths and misconceptions in your post too, but you make a lot of sense. I appologize for my somewhat uncharitable attitude, you are not mistaken about lineage arguments in all styles. I try and avoid those lineage disputes and answer with truth from experience and not from some legend I heard or something I read in a book. But my intention is to be charitable and share some concepts from bagua that you might face in a fight.
What style of bagua was the teacher teaching you? Did he have fight training or was it mostly drills, forms and applications?

When you say "most techniques take a straight path".... there's some truth to those words; after all, WC proverb states "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line". But, taken literally, that becomes a misconception. WC techniques don't "force" a straight path; they tend to look for it, but they take an "open" path. My sifu often compares WC with water - water doesn't choose, it takes any opening it can find. And that's the purpose of Chi Sao (the way I understand it, and I may be wrong) - it teaches you to FIND an opening and then use it, not to create one.

[joy chaudhuri]

Count sez(answers in brackets):

Yuanfen, isn't the Dan Tien your physical center
(yes for chi gung)
where power comes from?

((No- mechanics and other things are involved. The dan tien is important but it is not the only thing in my wing chun.The dan tien plays a differnt role in wc compared to taiji))

Don't you focus on strengthening it and storing energy there in Wing Chun?
((Storing energy and the dynamics of power are related but are not the same))

Don't your hits and kicks come from there?

((Again- the dan tien is NOT the only thing- so not exclusively))

Can you describe how wing chun foootwork is different?

((Different from what. The fundamental structure is an alive and vibrant yee gee kim yeung ma- footwork comes from
timed coordinated moving-adjusting the structure minimizing loss of stability))


PS I have visited sifu Tsou's site before and have met some baqua masters. (didnt spar with them)

[anerlich]

Count,

My Bagua instructor learned from the Hung family in Taiwan. One of my Sihings at that school even trained with Wang Shu-Chin, mentioned in Robert W Smith's books. Wang made this guy do Xingyi dragon stepping exclusively for about three months, just to see if he could take it. For those who don't know, dragon steps are sort of like one legged jumping squats, very taxing and hard on the knees.

Most of the training was drills and forms, not nearly enough applications, tactics, strategy and fighting. Mostly working the circle and palm changes. We started to learn some linear forms, but the instructor got ****ed off about something for no good reason one night and decided that we weren't ready for that after all (as I said, he had some personality issues that made him a poor teacher, though his own skill and knowledge were outstanding).

We used to compete in tournaments, but didn't do that well - which i feel was a fault not of Xingyi and Bagua but rather my instructor's teaching methodology (if you can call it that) and emphasis (which was to a large degree self-aggrandizement and increasing the dependency of his students on him).

I don't doubt I have some misconceptions about Bagua. After some of the strange "information" and scenarios I was subjected to, I would fully expect this to be the case. Indeed, I would hope it was, as my ultimate summation of my experiences at that school leave me well in the red.

My instructor closed up his school and stopped teaching publicly in the late 1980s. He still works in the healing professions, though these days more as a chiropractor than acupuncturist. I haven't seen him since then, though if I ran into him in the street I'd certainly have a chat to him. He was a likeable rogue in many ways.

A strange period in my life. There you go.

Quiet Man, your water analogy is a good one, though it's hardly confined to WC. The instructor at a BJJ seminar I attended said much the same thing about winning in BJJ.

[Rolling_Hand]

<<For those who don't know, dragon steps are sort of like one legged jumping squats, very taxing and hard on the knees.>>

How do you compare the *dragon steps* to the Biu Mah in WCK?

[TjD]

Originally posted by count
TjD, if most all techniques in Wing Chun take a straight path, than what is the the reason in chi sao(?) for arcing around a circle with your opponent? And what about throwing techniques?

And if power depends on the ground what does Number four in your signature mean? What do you do when you are on the ground for power?

from my experience, the rolling of chi sau - while looking circular - is straight. the arms move in a rotational fashion, but the power and structure goes in a straight line. one person punches straight, the other does a bong sau which is moves out straight, they meet and the punch goes off target. a person does a low palm strike which goes out straight, it is met with a pak sau which also goes out straight, and the palm strike goes off target.

as for throwing - my sifu hasn't shown me (or anyone else in the school afaik) any throwing techniques yet, however they are techniques which will take your opponent down to the ground. these are more body manipulation and chin na as i see it (but sifu doesn't call them that ). however, since i dont know anything about throwing i wont comment on it and make myself look like a fool

as to #4 in my sig, you cant utilize your opponents power without the ground. your structure coupled with the centerline makes your opponents punch add to your power for hitting them wherever. when i meet a strike with a tan sau (wedging arm), the arms make contact, their strike gets thrown off line enough so i dont get hit (in an ideal world), and the rest of the energy of their strike propels my tan sau forward, adding to my own energy. (just one example)
if there is no ground, its not possible to have any structure, and this all becomes a sloppy mess.

as to fighting on the ground, well my standing wing chun needs improvement so i've done none of that. however i do have a pretty good idea of what my standup wing chun should feel like and when i get there i'll experiment in different areas although this will probably be more along the lines of not being taken to the ground, and if im there how to get back up.

[Miles Teg]

Where I train there is a strong enphasis on circles, especially in rolling. Circles can generate and especially take a lot of force.

When we do Chi Sao we imagine there is a ball in front of us, holding our structure together.

When I trained W.T however, they made almost no reference to cirlces at all.
So I guess we cant generalize W.C as this or that. It depends on you lineage/sifu/yourself.

I assume that holds true in bagua too.

[yuanfen]

Mile Teg sez:I assume that holds true in bagua too.
-------------------------------------------------
In the 80s, I had gone to a major national kung fu gathering
in Houston. At one point all the bagaua folks went off toa corner
to discuss bagua- they sounded like a gathering of wing chun folks discussing common principles!