Who says that MAarts don`t work?

[WaDo]

Everytime I watch the Street Fighting threads I have to
read that MArtists are dreamers and that they will be beaten up
by everyone who is running around.
What is wrong with MA? Where are the mistakes in the training
and what should be trained to improve the possibilities of selfdefence?

[dnc101]

I get a little tired of hearing this as well. It's ok to question the effectiveness of what you are doing if you are looking for ways to improve. But if you come to the conclusion it won't work, what's the point in staying with it? Self improvement? Fitness? There are many better ways to do those things if that's all you want out of it. This attitude reminds me of what happened to Tai Chi- it was degraded to a 'Hippie Dance' because it was thought that fitnes was cool, fighting was uncool. Turns out the dancers didn't even get half the health bennifits, and no self defense skills at all. But Tai Chi Chuan fa is a serious martial arts style, if taught and practiced correctly.

Some of the people who say martial arts are no good for self defense are the same ones who post 'run away' every time a serious martial arts question is posted here. Others may want to disrespect traditional martial arts in order to promote their own version of reality training. I have no problem with some of these systems, and would recomend them if you need to learn combat tactics quickly. But I do have a problem with those who didn't have the determination to stick with a traditional style, then suddenly get enlightened by the adds the martial arts mags that promise to make you invinceable on the streets in one weekend.

Rant over

[MightyB]

It's all Attitude. Attitude determines success.


Look at a lot of MAists. A lot of them get in to learn how to defend themselves because inwardly they are afraid. They are fearful people. They are afraid of people, they are afraid to be hit, they are afraid of just about anything... they are fearful people. They think that taking a martial arts will compensate for that. It won't... it can't...

They think that martial arts are the cure all for their inadequacies. They think that they are becomming super men... they're wrong...

Inside, they are still that small, wimpy, pimply, pencil-necked geek that plays too many video games and watches way too much TV.

Then, they somehow get convinced by an unscrupulous fearful teacher that martial arts aren't for fighting. They believe this. They think that they are getting strong, spiritual, that they are superior to the thugs that they were trying to protect themselves from. This superiority is a fallacy... it's a thought... a persona... a self image that's built on bull $hit without experience. It's always "Our Great Great Great Grandmaster used this once in a deathmatch 300 years ago, and he killed some guy!" Whatever...

If you're a martial artist, you can break this cycle. You can ask yourself if you are afraid to be hit. You can answer this honestly, then you can compete in a full contact fight. You will learn, painfully, who you are... who you really are... then, and only then, can you grow. You then are free to become a skilled martial artist who can fight.

[Viper555]

Any martial art can work if it is trained right. I knew this woman that knew Tai Chi (and had been taking it for 5 years) and I wanted to spar with her. At the time I had been training in karate(the point sparring crap) for about 3 years and figured I could take her. Well we start and no matter what technique I throw at her she is always at of the way. It started to **** me off and I started throwing all kinds of wild fast punches and kicks but I still couldn't hit her. What really got me was that she seemed to be moving VERY slowly. It was so frustrating. After a couple of minutes of this she does some knid of weird move where she just kind of "pushes"(for lack of a better word) with her fingertips and I fell down.

So, basically, if any martial art is trained right it WILL be effective in a fight.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by Viper555
I knew this woman that knew Tai Chi... she does some knid of weird move where she just kind of "pushes"(for lack of a better word) with her fingertips and I fell down.

She took your root .

[azwingchun]

Those d*mn hippie Tai Chi dancers!!!! LOL

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by dnc101


She took your root .

As long as she didn't take him by his "root".

[BaldMonk]

In order to use martial arts to fight you gotta go places a lotta people don't want to go. People who call themselves martial artist train twice a week for 2 hours, can't do they're techniques in the air much less against a resisting opponent, do forms in a half a$$ed fashion and think they can fight. It feels good to be able to do a form and have people ohh and ahh, but it's necessary to dissasemble your forms and work on the basics. Then you have to work these basics against resisting opponents. People are always looking for secret techniques to help them become deadly. Fighting is like farming. You've gotta put in steady hard work to get results. It's not glamourous, you gotta enter a realm of uncertainty and take licks. Critical thinking has to be employed and experimentation results in bumps and bruises. Many teachers don't know how to teach usage. The list is extensive. The long and short of it is that there's a small minority of people who are able to use their arts because most practicioners don't train properly. There's been threads on the kickboxing trap before so I won't go into it

My .02

Baldy

[TkdWarrior]

Martial arts teaches u techniques first
then discipline
without discipline u can't hav technique too...
without technqiue u can't fight(yea u can hav lucky punch/kick)

fighting is NOT all about Techniques, It's about Will, Guts, Attitude.
fighitng is about choosing the Right thing for Right Time...
it's got nothing to do with Martial arts...
with Martial arts u can improve wat u can choose...
-TkdWarrior-

[Ravenshaw]

Originally posted by BaldMonk
It feels good to be able to do a form and have people ohh and ahh, but it's necessary to dissasemble your forms and work on the basics. Then you have to work these basics against resisting opponents.

I agree wholeheartedly. To know and practice the applications of your techniques is what really makes your kungfu (or karate or taekwondo, etc.) combat-worthy. And it takes a *lot* of practice.

I reccomend isolating one or two techniques from a form then practice and analyze them. Work on their application with a partner and then practice using them in a sparring match. Repeat this for any technique you wish to add to your fighting repretoire. With the guidance of an experinced sifu, this process is especially effective.

The forms themselves can only teach you the rough movements, and it is up to the student to make the distinction between fighting and performing, whichever route he may choose.

[Captain Chicken]

The judgement of Martial artists vs. other forms is partially invalid because of the rules governing no holds barred fights. What I have seen is a small roped off (sometimes caged off) areas where both fighters wore gloves. How could I maneuver? How can you use an open hand technique with gloves? My other question is "How many Martial artists truly train because they want to hurt people?" Ultimate fighting types like to destroy people. Isn't this the deffinition of evil?

[Merryprankster]

At the risk of being trolled, I'll respond to your assertions in a reasoned way. After this, it's probable that I'll just make fun of you.

A ring is no more restrictive (and in some cases, they are less restrictive) than a small barroom or a kitchen or a living room, etc. I've been to plenty of places in cities that had less room to maneuver than a ring. Like my friends NYC apartment.

The gloves in MMA fights are open finger, and open palm. The glove is held in place by thumb and finger loops of varying sizes and shapes, depending on the glove. They are designed this way so that you don't interfere with grabbing, manipulation, palm strikes, etc. If you can't use an open hand technique with this configuration, I'm mystified.

MMA types who train for the ring do so because they want to test their skills. They do so willingly, with a willing opponent, who is also there to test their skills. Afterwards, they usually party together or have a beer or two. It's fun. And it's fun because it's two competitors, not (except in some cases) a personal grudge match. I would hardly call the camaraderie of two people who recognize the hard work they both put in to try and be as good as they can "evil."

[Budokan]

I couldn't agree more. A weasley gutless wanker who lives in his mother's basement and beats off to "Charmed" decides to study MA. Know what? He's still a weasley gutless wanker who lives in his mother's basement and beats off to "Charmed"...except he also knows some kata. Big fuggin' deal.

MA isn't a magic bullet that can cure your 'loserness' anymore than anything else is. Sadly, there are dweebs out there who think it does. They will NEVER be martial artists.

['MegaPoint]

MAs are ultimately for one purpose- giving one options in the face of physical confrontation. Self inprovement is a result and not necessarily an aim, of true MAs. Through years of hard, honest, physical (yet safe) and diligent training, regardless of the format, the end result is often a positive evolution of self. Getting "acquainted" with pain, physicality and mortality will teach one to use their knowledge wisely. That is, if they have a conscience.

Learning to think and rethink in a myriad of ways and circumstances, being able to solve problems that you were unsure how to handle before you had the knowledge, is a hallmark of proper "schooling" whatever the subject. These lessons transcend combat. That is why Harvard's MBA program requires study of Miyamoto Musashi's (Bada$$ Samurai from way back)
"The Book of Five Rings". It is a combat manual in many ways, but it is also applicable to the business world.

Intent is everything when it comes to proper training. What are you training for? If it's for fun and competition as well as solid all around self-defense skills, any number of systems can answer your needs. If you are not worried about competition, are interested in knowledge and other cultures and in learning self-preservation then there are styles out there for that. In the end you have to be careful with the terms you use to define the fighting arts. If you do a "martial art" then the first word says it all. War is not good, and neither is aggression. From these horrible occurences comes the MAs. That is the fact of the matter.

If you study a "do (Chinese Tao/Dao)" or philosophical way of living and training vs. a martial science or art ("jutsu" in Japanese) then you have to understand that your intent and training purpose may be different. Self improvement and installation of "empathy" are two typical goals. The combat training is often a caveat and focus can become foggy. Fighting is simple. Too much pomp and circumstance can detract from the real purpose of a MA. Also, being in a full contact competition and being a winner or loser has no real bearing on whether or not you can defend yourself against what will most likely be an "untrained" fighter on the streets. Those of you who have had the misfortune of using your skills on the streets for real, can attest to this. Still, learning to spar is a good tool for young or new martial artists. After a certain point it can also ingrain many stupid techs and bad habits. Don't be fooled by smoke-n-mirrors.

Fighting is entropic- like nature. Structure and competition is far from chaotic. Therefore, to take any "system" to heart as effective for entropy is ridiculous. Ultimately you must be structured in your entropy to be successful. Fighting is NOT chess! I completely agree with real warriors like Bushi Sokon Matsumura and Miyamoto Musashi. Understand and respect the spirit of the thing in which you train. It will return the favor by revealing itself to you. Train half-a$$ed, with the wrong intent, and the return will ultimately be negative, either physically, mentally or both. Ask Mark Kerr.

Forge yourself in the fires of your soul. Test yourself in your inadequacies. Understand the significance of "mushin" (no mind) and "ku", the void. We are all solo travelers in the end. Guidance is one thing, but indocrination or blind loyalty is another. All the reward you need, and knowledge, is there within you. Hopefully with proper sacrifice, time and training everyone can realize this. Don't be in hurry to become proficient at mediocrity. There are no shortcuts. In the end the cream always rises to the top. Traditional ways that have stood the test of time attribute to this. In 5 years where will Krav Maga and MMAs be? If they're still around it will still be superficial and ho-hum <yawn>! Sounds philosophical, but that was gleaned outside of my MAs training. Or was it?

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Budokan
I couldn't agree more. A weasley gutless wanker who lives in his mother's basement and beats off to "Charmed" decides to study MA. Know what? He's still a weasley gutless wanker who lives in his mother's basement and beats off to "Charmed"...except he also knows some kata. Big fuggin' deal.

MA isn't a magic bullet that can cure your 'loserness' anymore than anything else is. Sadly, there are dweebs out there who think it does. They will NEVER be martial artists.

And what makes you and other so-called martial arts any different from people who practice in their basement? It's naive to assume that the Martial Arts cannot change a person or their skill level.

Who are you to designate "losers" from winners? The only losers on this forum are those who believe they are better than other people, yet have never done anything more significant. If the MA were so useless, why would people even bother? I've personally trained students who became better people and fighters through their martial arts experience.