Disturbing Special on Discovery

[Merryprankster]

I was recently watching a Discovery Channel special on the Arab World. A theme illuminated time and time again is how humiliated the Arab world feels--how marginalized they believe they have become. I find this disturbing. One young UAE man said that the U.S. behaves as though western lives are more important than Middle Eastern lives and that the U.S. treats Middle Easterners like "sheep for the slaughter." While I personally believe this is about as accurate as "Muslims are terrorists," I digress....

I found it disturbing for two reasons:

1. Humiliation is not something that outside forces can fix. The U.S. could behave in any way at all and a humiliated person would find a hidden subversive motive. Feeling humiliated is something that can only be changed from the inside out.

2. There is a strong fatalistic component to Islam as it is practiced in much of the Middle East. This is a fundamental psychological barrier to self-directed personal change: A fatalist does not look to themselves to alter their situation, and finds outside events beyond their control--their ability to affect the world around them is limited. If change happens, it happens through the work of an outside force.

These two things combined, I think, will make any perception adjustment generations in coming, if at all.

[KC Elbows]

I don't think so. I mean, your assessments are very good, but I think the middle east HAS come a long way in a hundred years, and WILL come further in much shorter order. And really, we do have a huge influence over them. Eventually, our influence will wane, and their own influence will probably grow, especially as the culture seems to be really desparate to move out of these times into more modern times. I mean, if Iran can come from being very fundamentalist driven to a more moderate position(relatively speaking), I don't think all is hopeless. I really believe(and perhaps I'm naive) that modernization builds a taste for comfort and security in even the most extreme cultures. Anyway, just babbling.

Your pessimism cannot touch me, I am optimist man. I'm doing great, thanks for asking.

[Black Jack]

What irks me is that no one in the pc media besides a few radio based programs even trys to mention your number 2 point.

A perfect example is that "black muslim" U.S. Marine who fragged his fellow officers in a grenade attack and shot one in the back. It was in the general media for all of two seconds then painted over in the fear of being racist.

Oh forbid somebody speaks the truth about a subject.

[Vapour]

for number 2, do google search with the word "Wahhabi".

[dnc101]

"There is a strong fatalistic component to Islam as it is practiced in much of the Middle East. This is a fundamental psychological barrier to self-directed personal change: A fatalist does not look to themselves to alter their situation, and finds outside events beyond their control--their ability to affect the world around them is limited."

Merry P, that is an excellent point! It clarifies a few things I've been wondering about. Particulartly why a seeming majority of people in Muslim dominated countries seem so he11 bent on self destruction. (seemingly- I don't know this is the majority, but they do get all the attention). I'm guesing that the fatalism stems from centuries of extreme religios control of every aspect of their lives.

Thanks! (We need a light bulb smiley here)

[Merryprankster]

KC Elbows--

I share your eventual optimism about the outcome. I think we may differ on the time frame, but unrestriced information flow creates democracy. I'm quite the optimist about humans. You'll find a argue vehemently against the stupid argument that we're going to hell in a handbasket.

I believe it hinges on three key factors:

1. Continued exposure to unfiltered information--look what the web has done to China

2. Continued globalization.

3. Continued western education for those who go abroad.

Unfortunately I see this may create some hard times--those who go abroad for education come back and become the ruling elite, for the most part. These folks understand world politics and make treaties, cease-fires, international policies based on that understanding. Those who do not will wonder why their governments have such policies and treaties in place.

Are Middle Eastern governments sowing the seeds of revolution in their own countries? It's well known the public educational system in these nations provides a very narrow worldview that paints the West and Israel in a conspiracy to damage the Muslim world. Will the "normal," population allow their rulers to continue talking out of both sides of their mouths?

We see it already--the everyday population of many of our "friends," in the Middle East really don't like us much. Will those populations continue to allow their governments to take more moderate views?

[PaulH]

MP,

I suspect the media is trying to ignore the real causes and choose to focus on this symptom of Arab humiliation in the Middle East topic instead. Listen to what their clerics are saying today. There has been more christians murdered by these fanatical sects of Islam bent on destruction of the West in the 20th century than all other centuries combined! Look at Sudan, Indonesia, etc. Until muslims around the world recognize that killing is not the answer and need to stand up to clamp down on their own fanatics, I fear that the only alternative we have is to actively defend ourselves. Another 911 is not an option.

[Merryprankster]

PaulH,

What are the real causes?

[PaulH]

MP,

Do you remember Salaman Rushdie? There is your hint!

[Merryprankster]

No, no, no. You sound too much like a left wing conspiracy theorist. Only for the other side

Articulate your stand and offer your reasoning. I'm not knocking it--just genuinely curious.

[rogue]

Here's a book about the subject that I just finished.

Bernard Lewis is the West's greatest historian and interpreter of the Near East. Books such as The Middle East and The Arabs in History are required reading for anybody who hopes to understand the region and its people. Now Lewis offers What Went Wrong?, a concise and timely survey of how Islamic civilization fell from worldwide leadership in almost every frontier of human knowledge five or six centuries ago to a "poor, weak, and ignorant" backwater that is today dominated by "shabby tyrannies ... modern only in their apparatus of repression and terror." He offers no easy answers, but does provide an engaging chronicle of the Arab encounter with Europe in all its military, economic, and cultural dimensions. The most dramatic reversal, he says, may have occurred in the sciences: "Those who had been disciples now became teachers; those who had been masters became pupils, often reluctant and resentful pupils." Today's Arab governments have blamed their plight on any number of external culprits, from Western imperialism to the Jews. Lewis believes they must instead commit to putting their own houses in order: "If the peoples of Middle East continue on their present path, the suicide bomber may become a metaphor for the whole region, and there will be no escape from a downward spiral of hate and spite, rage and self-pity, [and] poverty and oppression." Anybody who wants to understand the historical backdrop to September 11 would do well to look for it on these pages. --John Miller --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

[PaulH]

MP,

The Koran's teachings on what to do with the infidels. Only this century it has become the blood thirsty sword of Islam in the hand of OSB and those dictators who saw it useful to control their Muslim population.

[Merryprankster]

Rogue,

Interesting. I've never seen that book before. It sounds like it's in-line with my thinking on this issue. I personally don't consider it to be a particularly revolutionary thought, but I'm sure he treats the idea with a bit more rigor than I have.

I think the basic issue, as to why this "slipslide" in civilization has occurred can be traced to the fundamental nature of the religions themselves:

Christianity emphasizes a personal relationship with God and Jesus.

Judaism emphasizes following Mosaic law.

Islam emphasizes total submission to Allah's will.

There are some very real distinctions. The personal relationship Christians have with God allows them to keep politics and religion seperate. Heck, there's even biblical precedent: "render unto Caesar's that which is Caesar's. Render unto me, that which is mine." It also means that "God helps those who help themselves." There isn't really any outside restrictions on your goals. Add to that the idea that God created man with free will, to choose a path of his own, and you have a religion with an emphasis on the person.

Judaism's emphasis on Mosaic law also kept them apart from politics. As long as you followed the religious law, you could live anywhere, under any political system and still maintain your identity as a Jew and as a Jewish community. Israel might be a "Jewish state," but it's largely a secular nation.

Islam is different. Politics and religion are mixed. The Koran not only outlines the fatalistic relationship the individual has with Allah, it also outlines the relationship between religion and the state. It's a lot harder to interpret the Koran seperately from society and the state, for this reason. The Koran is not just a guide for living, it's a guide for societal structure. If you accept the premise that the Holy Koran is the direct revelation of Allah's will and guidance, then that leaves you very little wiggle room in interpretations. I mean, if Allah says the testimony of a woman in a court is worth only half that of a man's (and it does), who are you to argue?

Paul H,
Like most religious documents, the Koran is self-contradictory in many places. Some of the Surahs point out that Christians and Jews are people of the book as well, and should be allowed to live freely in Muslim areas.

[PaulH]

MP,

We know that, but the Arab people...
"When there is so much hatred and destruction, a little forgetfulness may be in order."

[Merryprankster]

Paul, what about the Arab people? More precisely WHY, "what" about the Arab people?