Kickboxing: Kung fu and Karate at advanced levels?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ArrowFists
[B][color=firebrick]Ditto Monkweed. In every tournament I've been to where sparring is one of the events, I have yet to see someone lean down into a front stance, and block using a traditional karate block, or do a backstance and employ chambered had techniques.

Stances are transitional. I wouldn't drop into a deep front stance to fight either. chambered techniques in many cases represent the chambering hand grabbing and pulling - which you will not do in a match. However, you WILL have strikes coming at you fast nd furious. you will get knocked out with a low chamber.

I'm simply asking why in competitions around the country, people can do their forms wonderfully, but when it comes time for sparring, the form shown in their katas are erased, and a kickboxing-looking stance, and fighting style are employed. I've seen it throughout Kung Fu and Karate, and throughout the ranks, from white to black belt/sash.

Knowing how to do a form is one thing, knowing how to apply it is another. you have to understand the PRINCIPLE behind what you are doing. That applies to anything.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ArrowFists


As a student of Shotokan karate for over a decade, I know all about Kyokushin. In fact, our school is a fusion of Shotokan and Kyokushin karate.

cool, then you know what I'm talking about!

[ArrowFists]

Originally posted by joedoe
The other thing to bear in mind (and this is speaking for kung fu - I don't know much about karate) is that the protective gear worn often hampers the ability to use certain techniques. If you are wearing full boxing gloves, then you are pretty limited to what techniques you may use. I know MMA comps use open fingered gloves, but we are not talking about MMA comps here. And if the tournaments you are talking about use open fingered gloves, then you also have to look at the rules of competition to see what techniques are legal. Ultimately if the rules only allow you to kick and punch then you are limited to mostly kickboxing techniques aren't you?

However, if none of this is the case, then yes you have a serious epidemic on your hands

Well that really can't be helped, since so many of the millions of individuals who participate in karate, kung fu, or another martial art form are children or teenagers. I don't think parents would appreciate their children coming home with black eyes, broken limbs, or worse. Every class I've assisted teaching in uses knuckle guards, helmets, and mouth guards during sparring sessions, or kumite as we in karate call it....

Advanced classes tend to lose the helmet and gloves, and just go for the mouth piece when it comes to full contact. However, I'd have to say that on a whole, punching and kicking feels rather weak, and totally devoid of power. I think that comes from the years of sparring w/ pads, and ridiculous point competitions seen in most MA tournaments around the country. The last point-based competition where I was one of the judges had a rule where throws, and grabs were allowed, and the participants wore open-handed gloves that could permit such an activity. Needless to say, all I say was sloppy technique, and really high, useless kicking.

I think we do have a big problem, and it does stem from the type of training that people are undergoing in dojos and kwoons around the country.

[ArrowFists]

Stances are transitional. I wouldn't drop into a deep front stance to fight either. chambered techniques in many cases represent the chambering hand grabbing and pulling - which you will not do in a match. However, you WILL have strikes coming at you fast nd furious. you will get knocked out with a low chamber.

I agree. However, I'll take it a step further and say that the chambering of the hand for reverse punches, blocks or other such techniques are next to worthless. Maybe for throwing, but I've never seen chambered hand throws being employed in Aikido or Judo.

I did see someone do a reverse punch in a fight. However he was 6'6 and around 260 lbs. He could do almost anything to anyone and get away with it.

Knowing how to do a form is one thing, knowing how to apply it is another. you have to understand the PRINCIPLE behind what you are doing. That applies to anything.

I agree once again. I actually have a book about shotokan bunkai (applications) and it disects every form and shows how each move can be used in an encounter. The problem is that most people aren't taught the applications to their kata, and frankly, I've never seen ANYONE break into a kata during a sparring competiton, or when someone's coming to beat them down.

[joedoe]

I do probably 70% of my sparring without any protective gear - you just have to trust that your partner will maintain some degree of control and will not inflict too much damage on you. Having said that we usually don't go full power if we are doing this.

Once you pull on gloves, your range of tachniques is limited and so while you can up the power you are limited on technique. I guess we need to find a middle ground.

So when you trained with your buddies, was it with or without protective gear? How do you think that might have affected the way you all fought?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by ArrowFists
Stances are transitional. I wouldn't drop into a deep front stance to fight either. chambered techniques in many cases represent the chambering hand grabbing and pulling - which you will not do in a match. However, you WILL have strikes coming at you fast nd furious. you will get knocked out with a low chamber.

I agree. However, I'll take it a step further and say that the chambering of the hand for reverse punches, blocks or other such techniques are next to worthless. Maybe for throwing, but I've never seen chambered hand throws being employed in Aikido or Judo.

I did see someone do a reverse punch in a fight. However he was 6'6 and around 260 lbs. He could do almost anything to anyone and get away with it.

Knowing how to do a form is one thing, knowing how to apply it is another. you have to understand the PRINCIPLE behind what you are doing. That applies to anything.

I agree once again. I actually have a book about shotokan bunkai (applications) and it disects every form and shows how each move can be used in an encounter. The problem is that most people aren't taught the applications to their kata, and frankly, I've never seen ANYONE break into a kata during a sparring competiton, or when someone's coming to beat them down.

I would say chambering the hand is a good way to train body mechanics to learn to generate the power in the punch. It is too slow for sparring and fighting purposes.

Kata/forms are nothing but a encyclopedia of techniques and a template for how you might move from one technqiue to another. To expect a fighter to use the sequences from kata/form exactly as they are taught is kinda unrealistic.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
I do probably 70% of my sparring without any protective gear - you just have to trust that your partner will maintain some degree of control and will not inflict too much damage on you. Having said that we usually don't go full power if we are doing this.

Once you pull on gloves, your range of tachniques is limited and so while you can up the power you are limited on technique. I guess we need to find a middle ground.

So when you trained with your buddies, was it with or without protective gear? How do you think that might have affected the way you all fought?

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I would give a testical for a holodeck like they have in Star Trek!

Imagine being able to program all manner of sparring scenarios and then go through them with various levels of safety set in!

Ah, the nerd in me always has the answers...

[Vapour]

Why do you have to do your kata in free sparing?

In my style of taijiquan, we emphasised 99/1 ratio of ying and yang weight distribution of leg when we step. But this is merely a training method to increase leg strenght and to learn not to double weight. In sparing, ratio are 49/51. Come on, no one seriously fight with horse stance.

Stance and patter are mean to teach you the principle of arts not strictly teaching how to do technique in this way or that way. If you do kickboxing which exclude groundwork or throw, your stance should become high. If you fight on the stree, most common stance one can take is old boxing style stance which is much similar to karate and kung fu.

[ArrowFists]

Originally posted by joedoe


So when you trained with your buddies, was it with or without protective gear? How do you think that might have affected the way you all fought?

We trained without protective gear. I think that forces us to use the techniques we've learned more effectively, because if not, you're going to get hurt.

[rogue]

I would say chambering the hand is a good way to train body mechanics to learn to generate the power in the punch. It is too slow for sparring and fighting purposes.

Other uses for punching from a low chamber.
1. Sucker punch to the solar plexus.
2. Getting a first strike in when the opponents in close.

I've found both work best using a verticle fist ala Isshinryu or an upset/close punch(ura-zuki). I've used these in sparring when in close and my opponents hands are jammed or his guard is open. I've also seen boxers chamber their hands when working the body.

[joedoe]

Fair enough rogue. I stand corrected.

[DragonzRage]

sniff sniff....

I smell a dead horse being kicked.

[shaolin kungfu]

You can smell actions!? Wow!

[DragonzRage]

I smell the horse...and I HEAR the kicking...happy now?

[shaolin kungfu]

Yes.