The origin of Ba-Gua

[maoshan]

This maybe a dead horse to some but,
Who does or doesn't believe that Dong hai chuan created Ba-Gua?
Believe me there is a good reason for resurrecting this subject.

Maoshan

[count]

I believe Tung created bagua as we know it. Depending on what "it" is. Why do you ask?

[Waidan]

Every alternate bagua origin I've heard lacks any sort of specific information. It's always a "Taoist Hermit" (no name) living "in the mountains" (never a known village or city that could be researched). The lack of details leaves Dong as the sole credible source in my mind. Just one opinion

[BAI HE]

I believe he synthesized the methods he learned, so I guess it's a matter of who taught him what.

I think that perhaps fused everything together (all previous training both mediative and martial) and "create" what we call Ba Gua.

But I think there was a base art or set of principles of which we call "Ba Gua" that he may have "flavored", much as Chen Ting Hua and Yin fu did.

My real questions are was it taught to Tung as a martial art or
a mediative one and is he solely responsible for the creation of the martial aspect.

According to Kumar Frantzis, Bai Hua iterviewed monks at the Lung Men Gate Monastery in 1985 who stated that that the Single Palm Change had been practiced in Taoist Monasteries for over 1500 years with no Martial applications.

Tough question.

[BAI HE]

I don't really have to know the answer to the question.
Because I know Maoshan will spend the rest of his
life doing the research and posting it here.This way I don't have to do any homework.

[dre_doggX]

I have heard similar things, that Taoist even today still do Circle Walking and simple palm changes, and this has no martial applications. So its likely that Bagua Zhang, is just a mix of what Dong learnt. from what I remember Dong did study Shaolin Lohan.

[HuangKaiVun]

Nice post, wujidude.

If one looks at the other authentic Neijiagong (specifically Tzuranmen, Yanqingquan, and Seng Men, can't think of any others), they feature this same simple inductive approach to combat.

Starting out with a few simple moves, these systems expand out to countless variations. The truly skilled Neijiagong fighter can even do the moves of other styles, that's how versatile he should be. But one must understand and do the basics of a Neijia system to pull this off.

The Taoist fighters realized that when you throw a punch, the height and angle of the punch varies with who you throw the punch at. You can't throw the exact same punch on a 5'5" opponent as you would on a 6'5" one.

Hence they practiced a simple move with an arm stuck out (e.g. single palm) with the knowledge that the angle and projection would change based on who you're fighting against.

Supposedly Dong Hai Chuan accepted students only if they had demonstrated proficiency in other methods. This is why there have been so many differences in Baguazhang usage.

If I were Dong myself, I'd be using the Single and Double Palms to help a student simplify and utilize (for combat) his former fighting style.

[maoshan]

Wujidude

I’m in total agreement with that thought.



I brought this question back up because something came to me that I don’t think any body else has looked at.
The various styles which all claim to be prior to the art we know as Ba-Gua Zhang, Are all called Ba-Gua Zhang. Something’s not right here.
It is a fact that Dong
never claimed to be the creator of Ba-Gua. In fact it wasn’t even called Ba-Gua while Dong was teaching, it was called
Zhuan Zhang (Rotating or Turning Palm).

Dong Hai Chuan never really said anything about the origin of his art. When asked, He would dance around the topic and give vague responses. The only concrete thing he did say was “I got it from a Taoist”. Now know and keep in mind that in Dong’s time, anything that was old was good. This way no one would question him on it. Because of this, some people took it to the next level.
This statement by Dong and the actions of Cheng Ting Hua and his associates, That being, they named their Association, unbeknownst to them, The Nei Chia, which was the name of another system from a hundred years earlier of Taoist origin. To read about the whole ordeal, read my article on Cheng Ting Hua. http://maoshan.topcities.com/ChengTingHua/Cheng.html

If Dong was a student of some Taoist, and according to the stories he had classmates, these classmates had to know the name of the system as well, which was Zhuan Zhang. Who was Dong to change the name of the system?
And why did everybody else change it to that name as well?????????
The initial name he called the system was based on the original name “Zhuan Tian Zun” (Rotating in worship of heaven).
The name of the art was changed to Ba-Gua shortly before D.H. Chuan died in 1882. And even that might be wrong. It was said that it might actually have come from Cheng Ting Hua because of his research of the correlations with the
I-Ching.
The only one that has a different name is “Ba Ban Zhang” which was brought to light in 1937 by Jen Chih Cheng. After the investigation by Kang Ge Wu, it was found that his art came from Dong Hai Chuan’s student Liu Pao Chen.

So I conclude that with out Dong Hai Chuan
There is No Ba-Gua Zhang.
Even though I admit I could still be wrong.
My Sifu Chen Xiao Ping has told us that there are styles of Ba-Gua that we’ve never seen and most likely will never grace the shores of America.
My feeling is if it’s named Ba-Gua it came from Dong Hai Chuan.

Just something I wanted to share

Peace

Maoshan

[count]

Holy shit Ben, that was about the most fascinating post I have ever seen here. Now I have to go read your article.

[bustr]

This is not my realm but I saw the topic and it reminded me of an article I read a while ago.

http://www.apittman.com/fire.htm

http://www.apittman.com/light.htm

http://www.apittman.com/writings/indancebagua.htm

Enjoy!