Lifting weighs

[gnugear]

I've completely given up on weights, situps, pushups, pullups, etc. I bulk up way too easily and it all goes right to my shoulders. Not a good thing (for me).

[AndrewS]

Amazing.

Someone asks for advice on how to lift and ever person who's convinced weights are the antichrist feels the need to chime in.

Perhaps the peanut gallery can start their own thread on how much weights s*ck and leave those of us who lift alone to have a discussion on the matter.

Read the first post in this thread and realize IF YOU DON'T LIFT YOUR OPINION WASN'T ASKED FOR.

Later,

Andrew

[1renox]

Answer to 1. No 2. No-not speed, but there are other issues. Wing Chun often and there will be no issues.

3. I've lifted nearly all my life and lifted before starting WC and prefer lifting and conditioning to WC.

I lift for strength, power and endurance because I like it. The thing about lifting heavy is that a person can become very strong, but it's also very devastating to the body.
I don't think my program adds much to my WC, but I think it does add to my ability win a fight if I did need to resort to strength. I can Chi Sao longer than anybody I know because of my shoulders. I'm not very good mind you, but I can outlast them. So maybe lifting heavy has helped.

If you are perhaps interested in incorporating a weight program for WC--IMHO, a high rep, 60% 1MR program with goals of high endurance and secondarily of strength, targeting the bigger muscles in legs, arms, abs and back would be best. Stretch before and after. Do full body2X week. Consistency and frequency are the keys to progress. Each person reacts differently to weights; each person has different goals. It also takes some months of experimentation and research to discover an effective program that can be incoorporated into a person's schedule.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
theres some difference between
a) using muscles
and
b) lifting weights specifically to train muscles.

like i said before, you may not feel as if they make you tenser but they will to the other guy.
having said that there are ways and means. the book "brawn" and "beyond Brawn" are worth a look.
and if you must lift i'd recommend you lift as slowly as possible like 5 counts up 5 counts down, not this quick pump pump thing.

i'm no stick insect, my body doesnt turn heads, but i can easily deal with muscle heads in wing chun situs, and can FEEL when people do weights. the only people i know who really have sensitivity and feel are my sifu, my best mate in wing chun, and most of my female wc sisters

You Fool,

'Lifting weights' is about as generic a term as 'martial arts'. There are so many different ways to approach lifting, with many different types of results. To say that all lifters are tense only makes me realise how wise you have been in the choice of your name.

You say you don't lift, and yet you are giving people advice on how to lift!

You conclude by naming the few people you know who have good sensitivity. Are all the other people who do Wing Chun that you know weight lifters?

[foolinthedeck]

lol
yes
well put

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Block
Speed and power in Wing Chun comes from relaxation and structure. I see many new students who are built like body builders try to use their strength in their techniques because that’s what they have learnt to rely on.

This is true. However new students, especially males of the species, tend to try and muscle their techniques. It is the "natural" response of many, body builder or not. This is one reason why we train, in order to overwrite the programming of previous life experiences.

As Foolinthedeck says, the tension is felt by your chisao partner, and you may not be aware of it yourself. Tension is a problem for all WingChunners, lifters and non-lifters alike. I lift weights. It provides core body strength and if done with stretching can be beneficial. I am tense, but I believe that I am steadily improving. It is more of a mental rather than physical issue, IMO.

Your mileage may vary,

Matrix

[AndrewS]

Matrix,

'mental and physical'- that's an irrelevant, in fact near impossible, distinction.

To me, whether I'm doing Wing Chun or lifting, the primary determinant of my performance and the primary system I train is neurologic.

Relaxation- whatever mental image or trick you use that gets your arms 'empty' while maintaining the appropriate ability to connect. Conning your body into no longer twitching in response to shocks. 'Feeling' holes, missing bits of balance and exploiting them by replacing and removing bits of your balance/force- all profoundly neural.

Lifting- look at power lifters or oly lifters. Compare them pound for pound with body builders. Who is stronger? The strength athletes, by far. The difference- many things, but in large part neurology. A lifter will hit a certain weight and their lifts will keep going up for years at the same weight (slowly, granted)- the reason- it ain't muscle, it's the wiring and program. Past that, wanna improve your lifts- use the right imagery to drive them, change your mindset.

All this stuff is pretty clear demonstration of the superficial nature of the mind/body distinction. That distinction, in fact, may be the only portion of this which is truely 'mental' (of course on can argue that no thought exists without physical corrolates in the brain. . .).

Later,

Andrew

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AndrewS
'mental and physical'- that's an irrelevant, in fact near impossible, distinction.

You're kidding me, right?

All this stuff is pretty clear demonstration of the superficial nature of the mind/body distinction.

Not only is it not clear, it's not a perspective that I share. Yes, you train your nervous system, but it is the conduit through which mental determination translates into physical results.

Power lifters are stronger than body builders because of the focus of their training and the methodology used to achieve their goals. For body builders, strength is a bi-product of trying to look asthetically pleasing (this is often subjective as well). Power lifters train for strength, and their routines are structured to deliver that result.

You cannot extract your neurological system from the equation any more than you can remove the mind or the body. All creation comes from the mind (consciously or sub-consciously), you need to train your nervous system to respond accordingly. To trivialize the body-mind connection is a serious error in judgement, IMO.

Matrix

[AndrewS]

Matrix,

the mind-body dualism is one imposed only by consciousness and which occurs only in the pages of philosophy.

If you choose to assume that we are physical beings living in a physical universe without some ineffable animating force (i.e. soul, chi, whatever), that the construction of a body, cell for cell would result in life and consciousness in some form, then the thing you consider 'mind' is merely an emergent property of a physical body observing itself.

The relevance of this- whether you are discussing strength or softness, mind and body are part of the same package. Good health and exercise will improve your mood (medline search 'depression' and 'exercise'). There is reasonable evidence to support the effect of mental states on immune response (medline search 'psychoneuroimmunology'). Cut open someone's chest and they tend to be depressed afterwards (I believe statistically out of proportion to cutting open their abdomen, unclear if this is 2ndry to common meds post open-heart or partial sympathetic denervation of the heart during surgery).

The difference between putting force in the ground and falling over- a visualization.

Teaching- sometimes all it takes is one gedanken-trick to vastly improve a student's progress. Recue them to that 'trick' and they overcome their block- to me this is part of teaching.

In performance the effects of visualization (with similar training times), a purely mental exercise, on physical performance are well documented.

Competetive power lifters use a number of psychological tricks in training and on meet day. In training some are 'instinctive' trainers, cycling in part based on body-feel. Others are scientists, recording and plotting out rep schemes, cycles, and accessory muscle work. All this is profoundly 'mental'.

You may chose to draw a line between mind and body.

If you presume a physical world, that is ultimately an arbitrary distinction.


This is, essentially, a dispute of philosophy. Nonetheless, I hold that the distinction between mind and body limits one's ability to use the entire package to best effect.

Later,

Andrew

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AndrewS
If you choose to assume that we are physical beings living in a physical universe without some ineffable animating force (i.e. soul, chi, whatever), that the construction of a body, cell for cell would result in life and consciousness in some form, then the thing you consider 'mind' is merely an emergent property of a physical body observing itself.

Andrew, You made no mention of soul, chi or spirit in your previous post, but rather "seemed" to focus on the central nervous system, which as far as I can tell is also a physical mechanism.

Quite frankly, I have no problem with what you've just said. Now you're adding a different dimension which was not clear to me in your previous post. I thought you were taking this discussion in a totally different direction. My mistake.

Matrix.

[AndrewS]

Hey Matrix,

fair enough. This whole subject wanders into new-agey b.s. which tends to annoy me, but when you kick back and look at the organism it becomes more clear what's going on. From that perspective, it starts to make more sense how to manipulate the organism- which is what we're really talking about with any form of training.

Andrew

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Lews
Ok I know that everyone has had this debate before but I have some questions for you all:

1.Do you have to train harder for speed to compensate for lifting heavy weights?

2.If you lift and don't practice for a while do you see yourself becoming slower

3.If there is anyone out there who lifts weights I would like to know how he incorporates that to his workout

thanks in advance brothers and please stay on topic....

1. No

2. Maybe, but that will be because you haven't been training, not because you are lifting weights.

3. I do. I'm in the gym every day and stick mainly with compound exercises, however I do do some isolation exercises. I do plenty of cardio also.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IRONMONK
hi,

i know most athletes use weight training and some world class martial artist who have phenomenal speed.
i have noticed that guys that do weight lifting tend to be very tense but then i have seen guys who weight train and are very fast and relaxed in chi sao. So my biggest fear of weight training is that i become slower and tense.
maybe those guys who are slower weight train incorrectly?so how do u weight train to get positive results(increased speed etc

proper strength training won't decrease speed. that's an old gym myth. Check out "power to the people" by pavel tsatsouline - lots of good strength training info there.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
theres some difference between
a) using muscles
and
b) lifting weights specifically to train muscles.

there's part of the flaw. proper strength training targets the nervous system, not the muscles - you are training your nervous system to be able to contract harder than normal at will in order to produce work. you can strength train and not gain mass.

[AndrewS]

Sevenstar,

comrade, good to see another member of the Party on board here.

;-)

(presently putting zheng gu shui on hands from 140 snatches in 12 mins with 1 1/2 pood and heading of to do full range squats and abs density-style)

Later,

Andrew