What is the Measure of Wing Chun?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Stevo
...I choose (I haven't really chosen I am leaning that way though) chueng style because , based on what I have read, I like the principles he has based his system on. However, Wong Shun Leung seems to have had similar principle behind his system as well...

I hadn't realised that they were similar.

Tony,

Most of us don't think they are similar. I suppose at some level they share common ideas, but there are many differences. I would pick the best instructor rather than choose on the basis of perceived differences in the lineages.

Good luck in making your choice.

Regards,

[tmanifold]

I won't claim any great knowledge but one of the things i noticed between the two was the 50/50 weight distibution of the the stance. A chueng style SiFu who I am in contact with mentioned that Chueng, Wong Shueng Leung and Lee Jun Fa were known as a very notorious trio. And that the three of them would often have "rooftop" fights with others. He gave this as a reason for the similarities.

There are so many different teachers of Wing chun as well as different lineages that don't even include Yip man it is almost impossible to keep up with them all but I like what I know of the Chueng lineage. I have a couple of months to do reasearch though and am collecting a very nice collection of video clips from the net to learn more.

Tony

[Bill_G]

Observe a few classes before signing up to
see if it what you want. Some schools have
physically demanding classes where you will
often end up with bruised forearms, which is
what I prefer. I have watched Wing Chun classes
that were much easier and they avoided any
hard contact at all. Personally I feel that conditioning
is a big part of it and you should expect knotted
bruised forearms and sore shoulders for the first
several weeks.

The sifu should be very demanding. If you can't handle
criticism, find another hobby. He should participate
in the classes and lead by example, showing you the
right way.

The should be little emphasis put on rank. Rank means
nothing, knowledge and skill are the only true measures of progress.

All you're gonna get with such a broad question is a bunch of
opinions. Go check out schools, if the students are sloppy
and undisciplined that is usually a good reflection of the sifu.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Bill_G
Some schools have
physically demanding classes where you will
often end up with bruised forearms, which is
what I prefer.

I'm not saying this is wrong, but how do you receive bruises on your forearms doing Wing Chun? Are you swinging your arms into each other?

I have watched Wing Chun classes
that were much easier and they avoided any
hard contact at all.

Are you certain that's what you were seeing? Two expert Wing Chun fighters will seem to be doing very little contending with one another's energy in chi sao. I would go so far to say that hard contact to the arms is not a feature in proper Wing Chun. The only hard contact should be to the head or body of one's opponent and that rarely if they are evenly matched in skill.

I think it would be more relevant to ask how long the students have been with the school. If an instructor has no long term students, with five or ten years or more, and the school has been around for that length of time, then the teacher probably has little to offer over the long run.

A good teacher will be improving along with his students and will be able to continue to refine the skills of his students even after they have learned all the sets. That's just the beginning really.

Personally I feel that conditioning
is a big part of it and you should expect knotted
bruised forearms and sore shoulders for the first
several weeks.

Yeah, for a beginner that's usually true unless they intuitively grasp the structure and so don't use shoulder muscle unduly. Once we've learned some Wing Chun, though, we don't engage the shoulder muscle much, if at all. If a school teaches the use of muscular strength, then it really isn't Wing Chun. A small man or a woman can learn Wing Chun well enough to control huge opponents.

All you're gonna get with such a broad question is a bunch of
opinions.

Unfortunately true. It's sad that so much junk passes for Wing Chun to the uninitiated. Again, Ray is apparently the real deal. Ask him for his best recommendation if you can.

Go check out schools, if the students are sloppy
and undisciplined that is usually a good reflection of the sifu.

I would think just the opposite---that is a bad reflection on the sifu.

[tmanifold]

The sifu should be very demanding. If you can't handle

That would be good for me but not my wife. I would prefer a SiFu who can be tactful. I will motiviate myself but my wife (as a beginner) will need a more measured approach until she catches the bug.

Obviously, first hand experience is key. I have done this sort of thing before. I will watch some classes, take a trail lesson if possible sign the shortest contract available(assuming they have contracts) and experience it before making a judgement. However, there are a few arts that extra special care must be taken. WC is one of them, ninjustsu is another and so is BJJ. There is a lot of fraud out there that some one not in the know would not be able to catch on to.

I personally take a 3 pronged aproach. I will pay them a visit to watch and try. I will research them on the net using google or another Search engine. I will also ask at any forums I know where WC is a topic that comes up often as well as people I know personally. This has worked well for me. As long as nothing huge jumps out at me, and for this guy nothing has, I will make a judgement based on my observations.

Tony

[Grendel]

Originally posted by tmanifold
That would be good for me but not my wife. I would prefer a SiFu who can be tactful. I will motiviate myself but my wife (as a beginner) will need a more measured approach until she catches the bug.

Yip Man, Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, TST, the undisputed real deal in the Wing Chun hierarchy (well, except by some monkeys) are all reputed to be good natured, patient teachers. Patience is key. Wing Chun details must be repeated constantly until they sink in. A pushy or belligerent teacher should be a warning to stay away from that school because the agenda is about that teacher, not about the student's needs.

There is a lot of fraud out there that some one not in the know would not be able to catch on to.

That is what I've been warning you against. Talk to the senior students. Talk to the other local Wing Chun teachers. What do they say about the other teachers?

I personally take a 3 pronged aproach. I will pay them a visit to watch and try.

There is no try, only do as Yoda would say. You have to have faith in your teacher or you will not commit the necessary effort.

I will research them on the net using google or another Search engine. I will also ask at any forums I know where WC is a topic that comes up often as well as people I know personally. This has worked well for me. As long as nothing huge jumps out at me, and for this guy nothing has, I will make a judgement based on my observations.

I sincerely wish you luck. A good Wing Chun teacher is as rare as a virgin in a brothel.

Regards,

[Bill_G]

I'm not saying this is wrong, but how do you receive bruises on your forearms doing Wing Chun? Are you swinging your arms into each other?

We do a drill called 5 star blocking drill. It is done to
condition the blocking points on the arms and wrists.
We also do drills at full speed. Maybe I've been doing
it wrong, but blocking a punch with a full speed tan sau
can bruise both your wrist and the punchers arm, as
blocking a punch with a boang sau may bruise your
forearm. These bruises will go away with training
as the arms are conditioned.

I would go so far to say that hard contact to the arms is not a feature in proper Wing Chun.

I would like to know more about what types of 2 man drills
you do in your style. We do alot of drills at speed. I've been
taught that to remain relaxed while executing a technique,
tense only on impact, then relax again, but shouldn't the impact
be hard? For example, we do a drill where the one person does
a roundhouse punch. The defense is a pock sau to the upper
arm and a wu sau to the forearm simultanteously. When done at speed, it will hurt the punchers arm a little bit.

Once we've learned some Wing Chun, though, we don't engage the shoulder muscle much

Again, I don't know what kind of drills you do in your style.
One we do is called lop sau. It is a rolling technique where
one person is in boang sau and the others punch is resting
on the persons forearm. The person in boang sau lop saus
the others punching arm. The person that lops then does
an inside whip punch and the other boang saus. This is
done in a rolling motion. It is done with relaxed shoulders
and is supposed to develop sensitivity in the arms. Even
though the shoulders are relaxed, doing this for several
minutes tires out the shoulders. Again, this will go away
after several weeks of training.

I would think just the opposite---that is a bad reflection on the sifu.

Yeah, what I meant is good indicator of his teaching style, which
is poor if his students are sloppy and undisciplined.

The sifu should be very demanding. If you can't handle the criticism

What I meant by this is that he should expect hard work and
dedication. My sifu is a great guy, he always tries to make the
class enoyable, but if we keep screwing up a particular technique,
we can expect to do it over and over until we get it right.

I'm new here, and probably not very good at explaing myself,
so forgive me. I do stand by my statement that you should
expect contact in Wing Chun. You can do the wooden dummy
form correctly and still whack it hard. You will bruise
at first, but to me it is good conditioning.

Grendel, like I said, please explain more about your style. I am
interested in hearing what types of drills you do if there is not
much contact. The reason I switched to Wing Chun from the
Northern style I had practiced previously was because it
has a lot of man on man drills, which to me seems like more
practical training than punching in the air all the time.

[Grendel]

Hi Bill G.,

Originally posted by Bill_G
We do a drill called 5 star blocking drill. It is done to
condition the blocking points on the arms and wrists.
We also do drills at full speed.

I used to do that drill in Kenpo. It's good conditioning for the forearms, but I find that the forearm conditioning in addition to Chi Sao and the Lap Sao drill becomes unnecessary once one gets used to it.

Maybe I've been doing
it wrong, but blocking a punch with a full speed tan sau
can bruise both your wrist and the punchers arm, as
blocking a punch with a boang sau may bruise your
forearm.

You might be doing it wrong from my POV. The Tan Sao is not a Karate-style block. Recognize the truth in this statement by considering what Ng Mui would have taught Yim Wing Chun. Women's forearms cannot take the abuse, so they deflect the energy of a punch, not take it.

I would like to know more about what types of 2 man drills
you do in your style. We do alot of drills at speed. I've been
taught that to remain relaxed while executing a technique,
tense only on impact, then relax again, but shouldn't the impact
be hard?

Not necessarily. The energy developed should eventually be irresistible, but not ballistic in its generation of power.

For example, we do a drill where the one person does
a roundhouse punch. The defense is a pock sau to the upper
arm and a wu sau to the forearm simultanteously. When done at speed, it will hurt the punchers arm a little bit.

That's fine.

Again, I don't know what kind of drills you do in your style.
One we do is called lop sau.

I don't do many drills. The only drills I do are Don Chi Sao and Lap Sao, but I don't do them as you describe below. Don Chi is about finding your structure. Lap Sao too. Lap Sao also provides forearm conditioning. However, it is likely you are missing the importance of developing sensitivity and position if you are using too much force. The three most important principles of Wing Chun training, in order, are 1) position, 2) position, and 3) position.

It is a rolling technique where
one person is in boang sau and the others punch is resting
on the persons forearm.

I would like to quibble with "resting on the person's forearm." The energy in the punching partner should be forward on center, as should the energy of the Bong Sao. The reason it gets easier is usually that the person finally begins to really relax.

The person in boang sau lop saus
the others punching arm. The person that lops then does
an inside whip punch and the other boang saus. This is
done in a rolling motion. It is done with relaxed shoulders
and is supposed to develop sensitivity in the arms. Even
though the shoulders are relaxed, doing this for several
minutes tires out the shoulders.

The shoulders getting tired indicates using too much shoulder muscle. The Lap Sao should be done without muscular force and involves the use of good structure, energy going to and from the ground.

Again, this will go away
after several weeks of training.

Yeah, what I meant is good indicator of his teaching style, which
is poor if his students are sloppy and undisciplined.

What I meant by this is that he should expect hard work and
dedication. My sifu is a great guy, he always tries to make the
class enoyable, but if we keep screwing up a particular technique,
we can expect to do it over and over until we get it right.

This was only a joke. Sounds as if your sifu is patient and recognizes the need to repeat himself like a broken record. This is part and parcel of the Yip Man style of teaching as I have always heard it described.

I'm new here, and probably not very good at explaing myself,
so forgive me.

The medium interferes with the message, to paraphrase Marcuse. Sometimes, even if we agree, there is a need for clarification before we can be sure.

I do stand by my statement that you should
expect contact in Wing Chun.

Right. I was just in need of your clarification about what you meant by that.

You can do the wooden dummy
form correctly and still whack it hard. You will bruise
at first, but to me it is good conditioning.

Perhaps it is good conditioning, but its primary purpose is learning proper position. Whacking it hard may interfere. You have to work up to using power to avoid using the wrong kind.

Grendel, like I said, please explain more about your style. I am
interested in hearing what types of drills you do if there is not
much contact. The reason I switched to Wing Chun from the
Northern style I had practiced previously was because it
has a lot of man on man drills, which to me seems like more
practical training than punching in the air all the time.

I agree with you. Other than the sets, two man training makes Wing Chun one of the most realistic of the TCMA.

Regards,

[mun hung]

Most of the bruises I have suffered were from the attacking half of certain drills. (meaning I am the one attacking the person defending with Wing Chun) If it means I get some bruises from helping my partner out - well, I'm for it.

IMHO - if my partner is to learn anything about defending him/herself, he/she must learn to deal with aggressive pressure(strikes).

(quote) Grendel
You might be doing it wrong from my POV. The Tan Sao is not a Karate-style block. Recognize the truth in this statement by considering what Ng Mui would have taught Yim Wing Chun. Women's forearms cannot take the abuse, so they deflect the energy of a punch, not take it.

I agree with most of your statement, but have you ever used the tan sau to "jam" or "whip" the attacking arm rather than only "deflect"? They don't require much strength either - just timing and structure.

(quote)
I don't do many drills. The only drills I do are Don Chi Sao and Lap Sao.

Are they really the only two drills that you do? I thought that WC was an art that stressed many two man drills. Not meant as an attack - just curious.

(quote) Bill_G
as blocking a punch with a boang sau may bruise your
forearm. These bruises will go away with training
as the arms are conditioned.

How do you get punched in the forearm from doing bong sau? Are you facing your opponent squarely as he throws a punch at you? If you are - what's your distance? Does getting your forearm punched at all seem right to you?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by wujidude

Herbert Marcuse said and implied many things, but probably not specifically this. Maybe you were thinking of Marshal McLuhan?

Aren't I the nerd? OK I'll go sit down and be quiet now.

You're right, of course. First time I've been wrong in over an hour.

I saw Marcuse speak once. He was full of crap.

Thanks for correcting me.

Regards,

[Grendel]

Originally posted by mun hung

IMHO - if my partner is to learn anything about defending him/herself, he/she must learn to deal with aggressive pressure(strikes).

No argument here. One must learn to deal with everything. Have you ever read about the so-called "soft" approach to Wing Chun. The soft approach is the highest level of Wing Chun. Everything else is just for tae kwan dodos.

(quote) Grendel
You might be doing it wrong from my POV. The Tan Sao is not a Karate-style block. Recognize the truth in this statement by considering what Ng Mui would have taught Yim Wing Chun. Women's forearms cannot take the abuse, so they deflect the energy of a punch, not take it.

I agree with most of your statement, but have you ever used the tan sau to "jam" or "whip" the attacking arm rather than only "deflect"? They don't require much strength either - just timing and structure.

No. I wouldn't do that.

(quote)
I don't do many drills. The only drills I do are Don Chi Sao and Lap Sao.

Are they really the only two drills that you do? I thought that WC was an art that stressed many two man drills. Not meant as an attack - just curious.

Yep, just those, but lots of Dan Chi Sao. I'll quit when my Wing Chun is perfect.

(quote) Bill_G
as blocking a punch with a boang sau may bruise your
forearm. These bruises will go away with training
as the arms are conditioned.

How do you get punched in the forearm from doing bong sau? Are you facing your opponent squarely as he throws a punch at you? If you are - what's your distance? Does getting your forearm punched at all seem right to you?

Distance? About 18 inches. Yes, I am facing my opponent squarely in the Lap Sao drill, standing in Yee Gee Kim Yung Mar. The forearms don't get punched. The forearms meet and absorb the energy into the structure. With both parties using proper form, there is often bone to bone contact, hence the bruises even with conditioning sometimes. Although the Bong Sao may give a bit to ninety degrees, much of the energy can be taken off the punch before the bend reaches that point.

I recommend the Lap Sao against outside styles, but within Wing Chun, it doesn't work very well against a skilled player.

I am not trying to disparage any particular approach in this thread except the unwashed jacobites who mislead their students. I'm merely trying to describe what I do and axe questions about what others do.

Regards,

[mun hung]

(quote) Originally posted by Grendel
Distance? About 18 inches. Yes, I am facing my opponent squarely in the Lap Sao drill, standing in Yee Gee Kim Yung Mar. The forearms don't get punched. The forearms meet and absorb the energy into the structure. With both parties using proper form, there is often bone to bone contact, hence the bruises even with conditioning sometimes. Although the Bong Sao may give a bit to ninety degrees, much of the energy can be taken off the punch before the bend reaches that point.

IMHO - if you are using proper form in lop sau - there shouldn't be an opportunity for hard "bone to bone" contact at all. Remember, lop sau is just a tiny piece of chi sau. And what does chi sau mean?

(quote) Originally posted by Grendel
I recommend the Lap Sao against outside styles, but within Wing Chun, it doesn't work very well against a skilled player.

I disagree. I recommend trying this with outside styles because only they can show you your weaknesses. And it might not work against a skilled anybody.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by mun hung
(quote) Originally posted by Grendel
Distance? About 18 inches. Yes, I am facing my opponent squarely in the Lap Sao drill, standing in Yee Gee Kim Yung Mar. The forearms don't get punched. The forearms meet and absorb the energy into the structure. With both parties using proper form, there is often bone to bone contact, hence the bruises even with conditioning sometimes. Although the Bong Sao may give a bit to ninety degrees, much of the energy can be taken off the punch before the bend reaches that point.

IMHO - if you are using proper form in lop sau - there shouldn't be an opportunity for hard "bone to bone" contact at all.

Remember, we're describing a drill here. If your Lap Sao drill doesn't involve bone to bone contact as described, maybe you have more meat on you than some others.

Remember, lop sau is just a tiny piece of chi sau. And what does chi sau mean?

Chi Sao is the basic platform of Yip Man Wing Chun. What do you do?

(quote) Originally posted by Grendel
I recommend the Lap Sao against outside styles, but within Wing Chun, it doesn't work very well against a skilled player.

I disagree. I recommend trying this with outside styles because only they can show you your weaknesses.

I have frequently, and it tends to work. I find that I don't need to use a lot of variety in dealing with other arts, but it's nice to have alternatives.

And it might not work against a skilled anybody.

True.

[yuanfen]

Grendel sez:
I sincerely wish you luck. A good Wing Chun teacher is as rare as a virgin in a brothel.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
O gee- missed out again?... and I just got back from Las Vegas.
Isnt there a Madonna song-- something about just like a virgin?
Viva Las Vegas? Nah.

Tried briefly to locate Steve Leung- not listed in the phone book or yellow pages- at least witha quick check.

[mun hung]

(quote) Originally posted by Grendel
Chi Sao is the basic platform of Yip Man Wing Chun. What do you do?

Chi sau means "sticky hands".

I train in Yip Man Wing Chun.