Alot of traditional arts seem to train against this almost exlusively. Why?
Alot of traditional arts seem to train against this almost exlusively. Why?
probably because it's a common sense way to punch. of course, if you're not trained the punch may be sloppy, but you'd defend it the same. boxing, karate, kung fu, etc. all have variations of that punch, although the mechanics may differ some. Also, most schools teach defense against a haymaker - it just a commonly seen punch. many styles have a more refined version - a hook. mechanics are different, principle is the same.
i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.
-Charles Manson
I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.
- Shonie Carter
Hook? We must not be thinking about the same thing... I'm talking about a straight(generally) thrusting punch made with a _passing_ step. Doesn't have to be straight ofcourse, but that's the most common I've seen. Hm. Right overhand and it's less refined cousins seems more common and natural to me,as far as real punches in real fights go.
Kinjit - my read of 7*'s post is that he's not saying the hook is physically like a lunge punch, but that the hook bears the same relationship to a haymaker as a step-jab type punch does to a sloppy lunge. That is to say, it's a more powerful and efficient refinement of the same basic, instinctive motion.
so
haymaker+practice=hook
lunge punch+practice=step jab
Newbies learn to defend against the sloppy versions because they are
a - easier to defend
b - more likely to encounter them in a self-defence situation (most folks aren't trained fighters)
As a student progresses, more skillful adversaries become accounted for and they learn to defend against the better techniques (probably the same kind of defence techs will work, but they have to become faster, more precise, etc.)
All my fight strategy is based on deliberately injuring my opponents. -
Crippled Avenger
"It is the same in all wars; the soldiers do the fighting, the journalists do the shouting, and no true patriot ever get near a front-line trench, except on the briefest of propoganda visits...Perhaps when the next great war comes we may see that sight unprecendented in all history, a jingo with a bullet-hole in him."
First you get good, then you get fast, then you get good and fast.
My point is that they don't stop doing it as they advance in rank - they still train against lunge punches from across the room. It's not sloppy in itself, its usually done in a very precise movement.
I've seen that too. Usually done that way because that's what the instructor learned. Sometimes it's done to give a student a human dummy to work against to learn a new sequence. The next step should be drills and sparring to really learn how to make it work.
I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows
The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.
Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.
DM
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Find the safety flaw in the training. Rory Miller.
right on.Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Kinjit - my read of 7*'s post is that he's not saying the hook is physically like a lunge punch, but that the hook bears the same relationship to a haymaker as a step-jab type punch does to a sloppy lunge. That is to say, it's a more powerful and efficient refinement of the same basic, instinctive motion.
so
haymaker+practice=hook
lunge punch+practice=step jab
Newbies learn to defend against the sloppy versions because they are
a - easier to defend
b - more likely to encounter them in a self-defence situation (most folks aren't trained fighters)
As a student progresses, more skillful adversaries become accounted for and they learn to defend against the better techniques (probably the same kind of defence techs will work, but they have to become faster, more precise, etc.)
i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.
-Charles Manson
I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.
- Shonie Carter
My guess there is that it's because that's how the particular style throws a lunge punch. you won't see thai boxers do anything like that. Also, at many schools I've seen, they claim to train defenses against a double leg, when in actuality, it's just a sloppy tackle. Because that's the way that either they or their style does it.Originally posted by Kinjit
My point is that they don't stop doing it as they advance in rank - they still train against lunge punches from across the room. It's not sloppy in itself, its usually done in a very precise movement.
Oftentimes, what you see on the street will not look like the things you are training against in class, but the principle behind the technique is the same. This is where the value of sparring comes into play. although you are still defending against the technique as your school does it, you will still be training to defend against the principle behind that technique in real time with other factors involved.
i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.
-Charles Manson
I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.
- Shonie Carter
I think most schools use it because it's the easiest one to defend against. And while some graduate to other attacks that are more difficult to defend against, many don't. But with 90% of the schools being McDojo's, what do you expect? (that figure based on all the schools I've been to, including the current one)
Let's not forget too, that you can't start beginners on advanced materials.
You'll be training against lunge punches for a good deal of time before you start defending against hooks, crosses and uppercuts (nevermind the specialty punches of some styles)
It is the easiest to defend against and it is the logical starting point to get the student to understand how to pick up incoming and stick it.
cheers
Kung Fu is good for you.
They do it because it's a basic teqhnique.
You need to learn your basics first to do advanced techniques.
Go Surf!
Train hard and work hard to gain mastery.
Do not train and you gain nothing.
Spread good karma!!! Because if you dont, you get hit by bad karma!!!
Then you will step in dog crap!!!=)
Karate's better!!!
nah, that's not what he's saying. he said he's seeing advanced ranks do it also.
i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.
-Charles Manson
I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.
- Shonie Carter
I have had advanced black belts tell me "no, you don't need to train against anything else - if you can defend this you can defend any punch"
I guess I should type more to be understood better. (I'm laconic, what can I say?) Sevenstar was right, I've seen black belts train on that and only that. It's not wrong for beginners but you'd think people who'd been training for several years would train other things as well... went to one dojo and they asked me to throw a right handed punch so they could demonstrate. I threw a slow (right) jkd lead and they said, no no no! nobody punches like that! What can I say, now I'm nobody!
"They do it because it's a basic teqhnique.
You need to learn your basics first to do advanced techniques."
No this is not TRUE. I've seen training against a TACKLE and the students presume the same defense would work against a DOUBLE LEG WRESTLING TAKEDOWN. It's not the same. Even advance self defense practioner crosstrain but don't really have basic understanding of the other style unless he actually trains in it for awhile.
A