Praying Mantis, kung-fu, violence ?

[ursa major]

Hello All,

During a recent discussion with an acquaintance I talked about Praying Mantis and martial arts and some of our techniques. He replied he couldn't see himself doing MA because 'it is too violent' and in his opinion actually 'promotes and is responsible for much violence in our society'.

I argued that martial arts has absolutely nothing to do with violence and everything to do with self-defense. IMO martial arts is an answer to violence. Now I defined violence as an un-provoked act of aggression by one or more individuals against one or more individuals. Pretty simple, it works for me. He left unconvinced.

I am curious how you see Praying Mantis or martial arts in general, and personal or social violence ?

Regards,
UM.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The nature (violent/non-violent by your definition) of martial arts is defined by the individual.. the techniques taught are, by their nature, violent.. The use of those techniques outside the kwoon is a matter of personal character.. not a product of the art.. the art is to be used for self-defense, not offense.. (or so i was taught)..

Be well..

[Stacey]

Martial arts is diving head first into the self discipline of forging yourself to be at your best, so that in the event of violence and turmoil, you can be resolute and poised.

Watching roosters fight is violence. Daytime talk is violence, racing thought and a "busy" life is chaos. By succumbing to chaos and understanding it, we can be free of it.

Your friend does not understand and is trying to stamp out a precious part of himself. He, more than you needs martial arts to maintain his integrety.

[devout]

I propose the point to be moot, in lieu of the fact that there is a difficulty in qualifying all physical altercations as violence. Let me expound.

Almost universally the word itself “violence” has degraded to the degree that it is analogous with the words “violation”, “misdeed”, even “sin”. However, in some instances acts of conflict transcend daily morality, civility, and sportsmanship (as such things are so subjective anyway). At other times, mores cease to be a factor at all.

A breach in personal contact, whether brought on by yourself or others, represents a breakdown of the civil process, ergo, sidestepping even a construct where societies' right and wrongs hold court. Under these heightened circumstances, your martial training can only help to stave off your untimely end. If we are the cause for such a fracas then we will face the judgment of time and karma, but if misdeed is foisted on us, then the recipient of our knowledge has stepped beyond deserving of civil treatment.

In a greater sense -a sort of meta-morality- (and for a further treatment of this see Jean Jacques Rosseau’s The Social Contract, chapter 3) the where with-all to continue one’s safety, to provide for one’s future, is the only manner by which someone can continue even the concept of right. Look into the past, and see how many times the pendulum of popular morality has swung back, then forth, then back again. Each time on its travel it renders something new as “right” and that which is deposed as wrong. In this sense only the strength of the victorious can guarantee with any certainty the furtherance of the notion of right

And what is the instrument of the strength of noble... their ability to remain alive.

[mantis108]

I always tell people that Kung Fu IMHO function best under 3 conditions - balance, mobility, and breathing. Note that I avoid using the term martial arts because of possible debatable connotations, philosophical or otherwise. Please also note that kung fu here means the time and effort spent (the merits) on the art [and beyond] of expressing the human body in combative form. In other words, I am not about to talk broadly about Wushu, traditional or otherwise, which is commonly translated as martial arts. This has to be fully understood before we can move on to the discussion.

We have to understand that since the dawn of time, violence has been part of the human experience. That's an intergal part of human survival. Deny that is to deny being human. Many disciplines, such as religions, still trying hard to make sense or rationalize violence. The problem is that they can only offer their audience a label. As Devout adaptly put it:

Almost universally the word itself “violence” has degraded to the degree that it is analogous with the words “violation”, “misdeed”, even “sin”. However, in some instances acts of conflict transcend daily morality, civility, and sportsmanship (as such things are so subjective anyway). At other times, mores cease to be a factor at all.

BTW, Hockey is properly the worst double standard violence under disguise of sport. No one complains about that which btw is my point of "labeling" as well. Change the label so that people don't feel so bad about it.

To be brief and to the point, have this friend ever consider why personal combat skill systems are so eduring and so wide spread? If such these systems are solely based on violence, how would thet last thousands of years and show no sign of deminishing anytime soon? Do human communicate with violence? What about the demographic of the practitioners? Could this be one of the factors in the success of the continuation of the human race - education on survival? There are people who are well into their golden age and still practice the arts. Are they violent too? So I would invite this friend of yours, UM, really to investigate rather than labeling Kung Fu or Wushu for that matter. I would say that this friend fails to see the pragmatic nature of Kung Fu which is to bring balance (chaos/harmony), mobility (the ability to adapt to changes) and breathing (really where human life begins and ends with) in to life. It is a chance to experience reality as it should be than detaching and hampering oneself from experience. As for PM, it is a right angled triangular window (pun intended) into the stylist who freely chosed it as a mean to express and communicate with the outside world. It is the knowledge of self in the form of an identity or rather knowledge which we as individuals live and breath in a world of freedom. After all, we are animals that aren't just animals (or insect lol). Sorry that your friend passed up such golden opportunity because he was conditioned to accept label as truth. He might think by labeling he can prioritize his efforts on more platable disciplines such as religions that preach pacificism but in turn he has only done himself a disservice in understanding human nature as it is.

Anyway, enough of my rants.

Good luck to him

Regards

Mantis108

[Shaolin-Do]

Well... I had a nice intelligent post to add... Until mantis108 covered everything I had to say in his last post....
The violence is determined by the individual, not martial arts. A violent person will most likely remain violent, and a passive person will most likely remain passive.

[mantis108]

Sorry, SD, beat you to the punch.

Regards

Mantis108

[MantisifuFW]

Mantis 108,

Thoroughly enjoyed your post. I like how you conceptualize the study of Gongfu.

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

Glad you enjoy the post. I think there's a point where a Kung Fu practitioner reaches a certain maturity via his/her style(s) and begins to conceptualize the practice. IMHO it is the becoming of age of a Kung Fu person so to speak. However, this conceptualization is often neglected in today's commercialized martial arts market. It is easy to fallen to be a production of a martial art than a person of Kung Fu these day. True traditional Kung Fu would still instill this discipline in their student. I was fortunate to have seen Kung Fu as a life style through the example of GM Chiu Chuk Kai.

Warm regards

Robert

[PAMantis]

I would like to quote His Holiness the Dali Lama on a point about the intent behind an action being the key to whether it is positive or negative. I believe that what your friend is meaning by violence is the agressive negative acts of one directed at another. While violence in it's purist sense is an integral part of human life and society, it is the intent of the act that will qualify it as a negative act or positive.

"The same verbal or physical actions can at times be positive an at other times negative because of different mental motivations. In some cases, with certain motivation, actions that are normally considered negative can actually become positive." (64 Living in a Better Way)

So what your friend needs to think about is whether it is better to be prepared for another's negativly motivated physical assault and be able to respond appropriately or to meekly accept another's hostility. I for one will go quietly like a lamb to the slaughter. I will defend my self and those that I care for, and care most deeply for one that choses to act in a negative manner to me by teaching them the error to thier ways.

Just the ramblings of a humble Mantis student.

PAMantis

[JadedMantis]

I agree with Mantis108 entirely...

In the middle of our alter the Chinese character for fire is upside down. While fire can mean anger and agression, upside down it represents patience and self control, which is what kung fu is all about. How do you learn a form? Step by step, utilizing self control and respect for the teachings, or a brash uncontrolled (and unsuccesful) sloppy hodge-podged fashion? Tell your friend to study Kung Fu, and if he does it succesfully then he will need not be convinced, for he will have already discovered the truth.

When I see the United States today I am saddened by the way people transfer responsibility to the nearest minor groups (for instance, martial artists in general).

While i agree that perhaps the commercialisation of many martials arts may contribute to a lesser degree of respect for the teachings, it is definately not the sole reason.

By the way, hello all.

[MantisifuFW]

Jadedmantis,

Great to see you onboard. I take if from your post that you are affiliated with the Wah Lum organization. (The reference to fire upside down).

Steve Cottrell

[JadedMantis]

yes, it is a break away called Jade Forest...it is based in MASS and with one other branch here all the way out in South Dakota...go figure

officially its the Wah Lum (Jade Forest or Flourishing Forest) Tam Tui (Seeking Leg) Bak Tong Long (Northern Praying Mantis) system

[ZIM]

I just wanted to write that I am impressed beyond words with devout's writing ability. I actually heard the Tennesee in that. This was Classic Oratorial Style- with alliteration, opprobrium, allusion, the works! Are you trained in any way, perhaps clergy?

Bravo bravissimo! Seriously, a pleasure.

Oh- the topic. Tell him nobody spars in CMAs.

[MantisifuFW]

Jadedmantis,

Welcome to the board!

I have some questions that I have private messaged you on but for now I look forward to your input!

Steve Cottrell