Punching out of locks/holds.

[Mr Punch]

BJ
I would say the key to getting out of a hold is to hit and keep hitting the guy with everything you got untell he lets go.

I would say this is on the money for most street situations.

Two questions:

1) Do you agree?
Answers esp appreciated from people with exp of being grabbed by people other than roaming gangs of rogue BJJers. People such as grapplers, or KFers with locking/holding experience who have had this work effectively on them, or fail... are welcome to answer too! Failing that any ****wit on the board will do!

2) What kind of strikes?
In my exp, properly rooted heavy external 'punch through his body for instant release' kind of strikes don't work. They're too slow. They don't land accurately. They're need a longer range.
I have gone for schoolyard 'digs'! Short, penetrative jabs, concentrating more on connecting with the particularly bony parts of my knuckles on major muscles/easy major nerve groups: 'shock and awe' (but more effective! ). They have caused pain, short term bruising (collaterol damage) and release.

Of course, answers will vary according to the attacker's objective, but let's assume it to beat the **** out of you (everybody's favourite, grab and punch/throwdown, ground and pound). You can add fancy dimensions to it if you like.

Please tell me your experiences. Or disagree. Or agree.

Or just talk about bacon, Bush, bush or ****ing Jesus.

[sweaty_dog]

I think it would depend on the hold a lot. If you can stack someone up and get a clear knee or punch to the head it is definitely worth a try but some setups are so tangled up and restricive it would be hard to punch.

[Merryprankster]

If you have inside control then you can strike out of the clinch. If you have outside control then I wouldn't try it. You will be at all the wrong angles. I mean, you can do it to irritate the guy, but that's about it.

Better to defend the clinch, make some space so you're no longer in danger of getting taken down, then fire away to get out of range. You can punch in and out of a clinch, but once THERE, you really need to defend it before you start just hammering away. Otherwise, you wind up off balanced pretty fast.

Mat, I think your tricks might work on somebody who is a bit clueless but us ex-wrestler types are used to having people try and sneak in a couple of good painful things when they can. Discomfort is the root of proper positioning

[Repulsive Monkey]

I would never if I wanted to efficiently come out of a tight hold or loch punch my way. That is pretty base in my books.
I find the best way is to suddenly relax and in this way you gain extra leeway, and its something that I've done many times in real situations. It's the only thing I trust if I wanna free myself. Suddenly tensing up is with strikes is futile in a lot of cases as then its just a matter of who's the strongest whereas quick relaxation just relies on being fluid and not strength.

[Mr Punch]

Sweaty, hi, what do you mean by 'stack somebody up'?

MP, agree about on the way into/out of the clinch, but not thinking so much of a clinch here, more like some typical bar grab. In my exp most of your average geezers don't try for the clinch, they go for headlocks and whaling, hair grabs and whaling, one unplanned arm-lock and whaling, or throat/collar grabs and er, whaling. So, if we translate this to the ring/dojo we definitely need a gi/top, and we need as you put it, somebody who is a bit clueless! Know anyone?! Er, I mean, has anyone tried this on you in the ring? And if so did you just answer with a throw/takedown, or have you ever tried beating your way out?

Or conversely, have you ever done this to anyone else, or isn't it allowed in your fights (are you still MMAing or just grappling now)? Or perhaps you prefer a little finesse?!

BTW, LOL at

Discomfort... positioning...!

RM, yep, sure I agree, it's pretty base. And yep, it won't work against anything put on tight. And yep, you can relax and gain extra leeway: if you've used these things in real sits and you have time, pls tell us about it, as it's obviously a fancier situation than my original scenario.

BTW, disagree with the 'tensing up with strikes'. I train to prevent tensing up disadvantageously whilst striking, hence my distinction between big phat strikes and little penetrative digs, which I would hope are more fluid and relaxed.

[Liokault]

I think what your looking for here are bites and eye pokes......after all if they reduce BBJ to a state of ineffectivness they must be good against locks!

[Black Jack]

That comment was about standing holds and locks but of course it could apply to ground positions as well.

If you mean going all relaxed on the ground that is different, though I still don't agree in certain respects, but standing up I say hit and keep hitting the perp untell you are in the clear.

I don't agree with a lot of the counter-locking stuff out their I have seen on grabs. By this I mean most places I have seen don't practice the street holds correctly.

An example is a bear hug situation. No one just bear hugs you and stays like that. Something you often see practiced in commerical dojangs. If I bear hug you I am going to slam you into a wall, the ground, a car, I am going to shake the crap out of you, sweep you, if its from the front I am going to headbutt you, knee you in the testicles, stomp on your feet, throw you down, whatever.

Try slapping on a fine motor skill joint manipulation when someone is doing that. That is what I mean by the street hold.

Same with a wrist grab, btw who just holds their wrist out in front of them for someone to grab it "just" like that anyway, a wristgrab is not an attack, that is nothing, its the followup that matters, me jerking you into a punch, headbutt, knee strike or kick, maybe even into a more severe hold.

Just to rant more, why even treat a hold and a strike different tactically, when attacked you will not know the difference between a incoming grab and a strike, its all on the same angle of attack, both coming in fast, unless you can slow down time like Neo you will not know the difference untell it connects, so I treat them the same.

Just to make myself clear, I like joint destructions/manipulations but mostly on a aggressive level, after you have softened up the attacker to make them work, same with counter to grabs, smash the attacker around with everything you got to get free, if you want to apply a counter hold after freeing yourself or offbalancing him go for it.

[sweaty_dog]

What's BBJ?

Stacking someone up is when you push your weight down on top of the person trying to submit you so they can't straighten the armbar. It sort of works for triangles too but it's not as good. If you watch good ground and pounders fight you'll see it a lot. Some of them pull up out of submissions too, which probably works better if you have arms like most people have legs (except for triangles where it can be the right thing). MP would probably answer this better.

My point is, anyway,that if you have someone curled up with their head near your knee or your free hand then punch away, but it's not a great solution for other positions.

[sweaty_dog]

I didn't even think about standing locks. Black Jack sounds like he is right on the money there. I have to say those aikido style moves are very hard to pull off, I've met one guy who could really do them but I think he is one of the few. Even the best aikidoka say that a streetfight is mostly atemi, as in strikes.

[red5angel]

I had a guy try to put me in a lock once. He tried to tie my hand up behind my back. I gave him an elbow from the free arm which made him relax enough for me to twist around and give him a couple of shots until he let go.

[Black Jack]

Just last Saturday I was working out with a 2nd dan in Hapkido, he was visting my silat group, nice guy and I would bet tough as nails, he liked to go rough, we had some spare time so he was talking about about a two finger poke into my clavical notch as a takedown from a two handed frontal choke which then went into a joint lock.

I said I did not like that tactic and showed him why. First off when he tried the technique he did not pin my hand to keep me where he wants me. Second since he did not trap my hand he had a very hard time getting the poke into that tiny hole when I was putting my thumbs into his carotids and jerking him around, when I finally slowed down to let him do it, I could resist the hell out of it enough to choke him hard, which stopped him from poking me.

He asked what I would do. When he went in to the two handed frontal choke. I just "trapped"-"turned" and "striked". Trapped his left hand with my left to my chest while I pivoted my upper body to the left to break the choke and shot out a chinjab/palmheel strike up through his arms and right under his chin from which my fingers slid up and onto/into his eyes. Almost on the same beat I raised my knee up into his groin. Then chopped his left arm away and backed off.

Total K.I.S.S. (I could of even just chinjabed him without the knee but the idea is to keep striking untell their is no longer a threat)

He said "I like your way of thinking"

[Merryprankster]

I would have used a similar entry into a throw or leg attack. Funny how all that works, huh?

[Black Jack]

Merry,

You mean the palm heel/chinjab under the chin?

Yea that makes for a great sweep and a lot of styles use it. Small world

When I use it as a sweep I either have one of his arms hooked as I blast him under the chin or more classically I put a free arm around the small of his back which creates a lot of pressure and arches his body. Does not let him escape the force of the blow and does trauma to his lower back.

With this way you can basically just slam the back of his head right into the ground. Another good move with the chinjab and my post on the next page back called "fighting pioneer" shows this is to grab the guys belt when you blast him. Pulls him right into the blow.

[LEGEND]

"headlocks and whaling, hair grabs and whaling, one unplanned arm-lock and whaling, or throat/collar grabs and er, whaling."

I saw a bouncer get headlock...he immediately went for the eyes with one hand...the guy let go to pull the bouncer hands off...then the bouncer grabbed his throat and wrist and pin him against the wall! I saw a fight where a drunk grabbed and punch ala hockey...the other guy was blocking the punches with his face but recovered and did a leg sweep and began kicking the guy on the ground. WILD STUFF at niteclubs I tell u.

[Mr Chips]

Hi Mat,

something to consider is that if you try and punch your way out of a hold or lock you might be doing exactly what your opponent wants. Where i train we often don't use locks etc. to make the other guy submit (mostly cos' it doesn't work very well) but instead use them to **** him off, so that he either tries to get his arm back or tries to punch you etc. In either case you know what is going to happen and he has to expose his target to do it, which allows you to run him over.