Ufc

[Dark Knight]

So the UFC is limited then. Like everything.

Compared to what? And like you say, everything is limited. With the NHB events people base their opinion on fighting from results, how many schools are sying theoir art is the best but no one has ever fought? The techniques are too deadly? How do you know you can make them work. I have done the pressure point KO's on people who stand still for me, what are the odds of making them work in a real fight?

In the NHB events they can say what will KO someon because they have done it, they know what will break an arm or legbecause some people did not tap and it happened.

Its easy to say you can overcome a grappler with an eye strike or knee them when they shoot in, but until you actually try it, its still theory.

[jun_erh]

I was watching kings of the cage the other day, and there were a few times I noticed a few differences between the cage and reality. There was one point where the guy was in a perfect position to stomp on the guys head. It was a real tactical arror on the other guys part, and on the street it would have gotten smooshed.

[yenhoi]

so what?

[Void Boxing]

Originally posted by Dark Knight


Its easy to say you can overcome a grappler with an eye strike or knee them when they shoot in, but until you actually try it, its still theory.

Bloody oath thats the truth. The UFC is limited in the fact that you cannot use everything you would use in the street, for instance you have to slug it out with a big fella instead of booting him in the balls, poking out his eyes, chopping into this throat to steal his air. Yes it may be just theory, but that is what sparring is for!! You make it a reflex action!!! UFC doesnt allow for this do they? I admit, my statement was a bit ignorant, ill take more care next time. Not everything is limited, what i should have said is that everything has a pro and a con. A price and a benefit. Yin and yang.

[Dark Knight]

The UFC is limited in the fact that you cannot use everything you would use in the street, for instance you have to slug it out with a big fella instead of booting him in the balls, poking out his eyes, chopping into this throat to steal his air.

Kieth Hackney Beat Jo Son by grabbing him by the throat, and punching him in the groin at a UFC. It wsnt quick and Jo Son took at lot of shots to the groin.

Not all NHB events have the same rules, Vale Tudo has by far fewer. Strikes to the groin are allowed in many tournaments, and they were allowed at UFC, but it didnt change much.

[Dark Knight]

Here are the rules for Vale Tudo

No biting
No eye gouging
No fishing hook
No holding the ropes
No kicking if wearing shoes
No placing hands or feet inside the opponent's trunks


Feel free to strike the groin or throat.

Biting and eyegouges will not change the outcome very much, the top fighters will still be the top fighters. They will train for them.

[Dark Knight]

People worry too much about how one style of fighting compares to another. Instead look at what your doing and does it do what you want it to do?

Are you in it for fun and get in shape?

Is it to compete in NHB, points, forms?

If you are looking for a weakness in a fighting style look no further than your own when you are talking self defense no matter what style.

If a guy walks up behind you and hits you with a bat when your not looking, it doesn’t matter what style your in, your going down.

I also do IDPA (Pistol competition) If you go through any of the gun training schools, (Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, …) the standard is to recognize a threat, draw and shoot three times in under 2.5 seconds. Most people who practice are faster. Now empty hand is limited.

But a guy with a bat from behind still has the same results.

The advantage MMA people have is they train as they fight. Everything is theory until you get a chance to do it for real. Just because some one made it work once does not mean it will work all the time. Billy Blanks won a couple tournaments with a cartwheel. I cant make it work.

It’s the same advantage boxers, wrestlers and Judo guys have, they train as they fight.

If you want to know how to beat a MMA guy, go find one and train with him, they have all the escapes and counters that work.

If you want to be a street fighter, make you training more realistic. Put on the gloves at least once a week and see how well your techniques work against a live resisting opponent.

The Dog Brothers do full contact stick fighting and allow anyone to come in that uses other short range weapons (Staff, cane, wooden swords…)

Train hard for what you want to do, and don’t worry about what others are doing unless it makes you better.

[jun_erh]

my interst is for my own self defense. That is, I want to be protected against someone else fish-hooking, head stomping, etc. I'm not putting a moral thing on those tactics.

yenhoi- don;t know if you were talking to me. My point was that whatever the guy was doing was effective for the ring because the guy couldn't move his foot up and over a few inches and step on his skull. Some pyschopath would not even think of it. So why train to be like "I'm in this position so I'm "safe" "

Like when sakuraba does a cartwheel to get around the guy doing the what is it called, when they have their legs up and you sort of kick their legs or have a standoff. In the ring, you have to try and use your talent to either fool your opponent or attack their legs or what have you. But what if sakuraba picked up a boulder and threw it at him. Or just viciously bottled him.


See, in my mind I'm James Bond.

[yenhoi]

Very, very few people train nut-shots, eye-gouges, or full-contact throat strikes realistically or frequently.

jun_erh: Your totally correct, but, neither UFC fighter im sure had any reservations about UFC being too limited, before they stepped up to test each other. Ive never met a cage fighter that thinks he trains for street fighting.

Training competitively trumps training non-competitively in the realm of "what works." Sure knocking out a windpipe might end a real fight, good luck making it happen if its not a part of your regular full-contact "reality" training, specially against someone who is trying equally to hurt you.

[jun_erh]

I wouldn't bet on an uknown opponent not knowing that stuff. I think NHB is more realistic than alot of stuff, and should be promoted, but nothing wrong with looking at it critically in the interest of "Art"

[yenhoi]

[Ryu]

There seems to be a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about this whole "biting" aspect of fighting.

I wrote an article about it on another forum....the realities of it, and my experiences of it. Let me see if I can find it.

Ryu

[Ryu]

Here you go. (It was on Kino Mutai)



On Kino Mutai.... May 30 2003, 3:13 PM


I must admit. Because of my heavy grappling experience, I didn't put as much stock into biting as I should of. Even though I had used it in real fights with success. I figured I would have good position and just counter and ground pound the guys head in. (and for those who don't know how or when to bite that's a very big reality.)

Well after rolling with Paul full contact, I have changed my mind!
Even when I got what I thought was good position on Paul, he'd bite and I'd find myself mysteriously on the bottom! Mysteriously reversed LOL. And I've been grappling for a good 6 or 7 years now. My reaction was not "I'm gonna get you for biting me." My reaction was "Holy crap! I can't get him off me!!"

Here's what you need to know about effective biting skill in a groundfighting situation.

1. (Most important in my opinion) You need to know how to grapple. You need to be able to realistically hang with good groundfighters in order to get yourself the proper position to pull it off (just as CFA Ryan said).
That means you need good position. Not necessarily top position, but you need to know how to roll.
The best ground positions to bite from are.

1. Mount: You have the cheek, the neck, the ear, the trapezius muscle.
2. Side control: You have the neck, the latissimus dorsi, the ear, the cheek, sometimes the nipple.
3. Guard: You have the ear, the cheek, the trapezius.
4. Inside the guard: You have the nipple, the neck, sometimes the ear.
5. North and South position: You have the nipple, and (dare I say it...) the groin LOL

The second thing you need to know about effective biting in a groundfighting situation is that you need to do it uninterrupted. This means that you need control over your opponent. You need to lock him into your bite with your arms, forearms, etc. This requires a lot of grip strength, because when you bite someone....they're going to pull away (I know from real combat experience too) The mistake people make is that they think they can simply bite, and the opponent will shriek in fear and cower at their mighty chomppers...doesn't happen. When you bite someone....they're going to be ****ed. They're going to want to really hurt you. It's true. What you need to do is turn that rage into "panic." The way to do that is to make it so that the opponent CANNOT pull away from your bite. This panic and retreat mindset will aid in your ability to reverse position, scramble, get back to your feet, etc. Keep in mind that if you bite just to free yourself...the fight may not be over..your opponent will now be irate at having been bitten. So effective control is crucial for kino mutai (or whatever you want to call it). Grip strength, lock the opponent into your bite. He shouldn't be able to pull away (but he'll be trying).

The third thing is that there is a proper way to bite.
This may sound gross, and I apologize...but you want to avoid getting a big glob of flesh into your mouth. Position your head so that the inscisors can cut and tear the flesh. It's a circular ripping of the flesh. It results in lots of small damaging bites. Again, control is crucial. If you bite with your front teeth, inscisors, etc. and have not locked your opponent into your bite..and he pulls away violenty....you may lose those teeth.

4rth. I want to reinerate. Biting is NOT a substitute for groundfighting. It is a way to cheat, and possibly save yourself from a better groundfighter. You need to be functional in your grappling skill. And never forget...ever, that BJJ people, wrestlers, judoka, etc...they all are itching to cheat and bite in fights too. Don't think for a moment that they're idiotic human beings that don't think of those tactics. They do as well.
Biting and eyegouging is a last ditch effort...because it raises the stakes of the fight to its very zenith.

Hope that helps.
Ryu

[ARH]

Ryu, that is an excellent post! Would you mind if I did a cut and paste job to my own forum? Your post summed up what I posted on my own forum a while back in about a quarter of the length.

[Ryu]

Thanks man
Sure, go right ahead.

Ryu