Grand Ultimate Plum Blossom, 7 Star and Zhaiyao

[ursa major]

I was visiting this place http://www.mantisboxing.msk.ru/curriculum_eng.html and saw a reference to "Seven forms of 'Essentials' (Zhaiyao)".

Could someone who is learned in both Grand Ultimate Plum Blossom PM and 7 Star PM, comment on whether there is any similarity between "Seven forms of Essentials" in the former and 1st, 2nd and 3rd Essential forms in the latter ? It seems to me they share a common root word 'Zhaiyao' ?

Thank-you,
UM

[MantisifuFW]

UM,

I have waited for others more knowledgable than I to respond but, as they have not yet done so, I will give my limited perspective.

The Zhaiyao sets or "essentials" are the subject of much debate. Some feel that they were movement phrases drawn from other sets such as Bung Bo, Lan Jeet and other sets combined with some material not included sets but accepted Tanglang techniques.

Others feel that they predated most of the other sets and that those sets drew from the Zhaiyao sets for their material.

Among Qixing practitioners, the first three are generally accepted as the original and there are many movements we have in these sets that are common across family lines. The other Zhaiyao sets are considered, among Qixing practitioners, as later additions.

The Meihua practitioners I have spoken to vary in their opinion as to the history of the sets but from what I gather they hold to all seven being quite early in the system's development. I have heard, though not seen, that the later sets may even contain some Di Tong, (groundfighting), techniques though I myself have not seen this.

As I said when I started this, I am not the most knowledgable of such things but there's what I know.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[mantis108]

I think Sifu Cottrell drew a pretty good picture of what Zhaiyao is about.

There are schools, mainly mainland ones, that regard Zhaiyao as THE form for teaching Mantis fighting Skills yet Zhaiyao is not the first form one would every learn. Personally, I find that logic ridiculous. It perpetuates the elitist myth in Mantis Kung Fu. It is in my mind a load of horse dung. If a person learned Bengbu and can't be regarded as a mantis fighter or rather considered fighting with Mantis Kung Fu. What good really are those so called foundation forms including Bengbu? Moreover, what good would the Zhaiyao do to a student who can't fight despite of his years of training piror to learning Zhaiyao in the first place? Is Zhaiyao really the magic pill or wizzard's wand? I just wanted to point out the selling Zhaiyao as secret rites initiation material is absolutely detestful to me. If the fundamental stuff isn't working in the first place what makes the advanced material any better? Having said all that, it doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the value of Zhaiyao. I believe they captured the hearts, minds and wisdom of the pass masters in physical forms; and as such they demand the respects of all the mantis practitioners. No more no less.

That's my take on Zhaiyao.

Mantis108

[Shaolin Master]

Like many martial arts of china the development of them leads to differing branches.

It is ascertained that the keys to certain arts lied in more direct combat theories and strategies. Since the Ming period forms practise has however commenced and promoted ever since.

In tang lang Quan, mainland 7 Star also has 6 sets of Zhai Yao (not just three). But the number is not as important as the essence. [Actually there is a 7 star branch with 8 essentials]

In Liu He Tanglang Quan there 93 Hands essentials which can be compared to Secret Hands essentials. These are/were the pool from which other developments occur.

So many things are but latter developments.

Again, we all have our thoughts and so am I hopefully others more knowledgeable may contribute (although two already have).

[MantisifuFW]

UM,

Indeed as Mantis108 has said, I too have heard that great emphasis was placed upon the Zhaiyao as the primary Sanda transmission. In fact, this view is held by Qixing practitioners on the mainland, especially for the First Essential.

After my study on the mainland I too have looked with renewed interest at the Zhaiyao sets and, having trained with some formidable Tanglang folks on the mainland, understand their emphasis and viewpoint.

However, like Mantis108, I feel that the basics are quite effective. (I must say clearly that though the Qixing Tanglang folks I trained with valued the First Route Essential as a primary Sanda set, they equally valued the fundamentals as the key to Tanglang fighting). This does differ from the Meihua folks and others who do place such value on the Essentials Sets as the key to fighting.

For HK practitioners, the Essentials are beautiful statements, even conversations between the sets that preceeded them. For the Second Essential, it is the Hoc Fu Tao Sum found in Chop Choi or Dai Fan Che and phrases from Muy Fa Loc or Muy Fa Kuen. For the Third Essential it is a conversation with Fay Nan Jern, Loc Ying Jern, Su Gui Sik and Muy Fa Loc.

Anyway I realized that some of the phrases are shared with our mainland Qixing brothers when I was very privileged to experience the Zhaiyao with Sifu Tunks and his teacher, the great sifu, Kang Zhiqiang, (may he rest in peace). However, I must say that the expression of those phrases was distinctly different from my beloved HK Tanglang. Nonetheless, I learned a great deal that I carry on today from being allowed to train with Sifu Kang, his Gongfu brother Li and Sifu Tunks.

Thank you Mantis108 for your insight and illuminating commentary and Shaolin Master for your very informative response. I always know that I will learn something when I see that either of you have posted.

Steve Cottrell

[B.Tunks]

I feel there is a gem in each of the classic sets from Beng Bu, Fanche through to Zhaiyao or in Qixing, the Bai Yuan series. They all have their value. Of course certain masters, families, practitioners favour particular sets. Myself I value Zhaiyao quite highly, but as 108 said, it is empty without fundamentals of Tanglang Quan. This is the same with all forms.
b.t

[mantis108]

Hi Sifu Cottrell, Brendan, and All,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I particularly enjoy the reference that Sifu Cottrell gave on the 2nd and 3rd Zhaiyao (HK version). I wish that he would elaborate on that if it is possible. I think it is very helpful and at the sametime valuable insights. BTW, it is really awesome that Brendan's teacher, brothers and Brendan himself all are willing to share their knowledge without holding back.

I am also glad that we all value the fundametnal material in our systems just as highly.

I believe that Sifu Cottrell, Brendan also alluded to this, brought up yet another important point worth examining. It is about "point of reference" (POR) in Mantis forms which are almost the single most significant component in the styles at least at current state of Mantis teaching. I am short on time now, I would definitely continue later.

Once again, thank you Steve and Brendan.

Warm regards

Robert

PS Where's Tainan? Hallo, earth to Kevin.

[Tainan Mantis]

I have been bust these days working on some translation projects.

My shrfu, Shr Zhengzhong's, research into Zhaiyao comes to the conclusion that they are all different. He has learned in total nearly 30 of these forms as well as closely examining other zhai yaos of other styles.

they are all different.
Although most styles share alot of similarities in the first zhaiyao later versions differ.

When last we discussed this on this board I asked him and he performed the beginnings of about 12 zhai yao forms showing how vast the differences were.

Most likely they were all made up within the last 100 years, with the exception of the first one.