the third hand

[TenTigers]

Phenix,
ok, one at a time....I don't know about you, but I am having fun-learning is always fun.


"WCK is more close to White Crane's five elements hands potential concept then Hung Gar."

could you elaborate? you seem to know what you are talking about, so let's get some detail, instead of simply posing questions. Not that I'm against the Socratic method, I would just like to learn more from your end, as well.-'you SURE you don't know Daifong?

"Sure.Hung Gar is the core of White Crane WCK from Fujien Right? --HS"

Ok, don't ya be gettin all pompous here. I didn't say Hung Ga is the core of Fukien White Crane,I was stating that they have similar roots, however, correct me if I'm wrong-Fong Qianyang who developed a branch of fukien White Crane from Youngchun county(WingChun in Cantonese) did in fact study Siu-Lum and the art is still referred to as Youngchun White Crane.

"To be just very general and not getting into Yin Yang details, jing path.... WCK is more close to White Crane's five elements hands potential concept then Hung Gar."
This sounds facinating-please do go into details-explain White Crane's five element hands. And yes, Hung-Ga's elements are different-they were added to the system by Lama P'ai's Wong Yun Lam's association with Wong Fei-Hung. Lama P'ai and Fukien White Crane are not the same-but again, there are some startling similarities on the short=hand techniques, so who knows? There might have been alot more sharing and exchange of knowledge between the Ten Tigers than we realize.

"It will be interesting for you to open the can or cans of worms to prove it is not close to White CRane from Fujian but Hung Gar.
Certainly, I will love to learn if that is the case. "

see above -I still can't get the hang of this copy/paste thingy

"As for listerning and issueing power, IMHO, In my understanding, when one's practice based on localized tensing system. That is a different type of sensing and power issue to non-localized tensing system. -HS"

What do you mean by localized tensing? And what is a localized tensing system as opposed to a non-localized tensing system? I am not following you.details, puh-leez

"IMHO, localized training is a no no for WCK. and in addition, shifting horse is too late, even shifting shoulder is too late"

ok, what is localized training?
and...I said shifting horse in response to situations AS they occur, not after. Again, bridge sensitivity is key-you push, I yield, and shift, allowing your energy to extend.
also, I said, most Hung-Ga schools use the term kiu-sao faht, and not chi-sao-but what's in a name? In France a Big Mac is a Royale with Cheese. (I suppose avec fromage would be correct?) If you're simply going to state that we don't have the same techniques and theories simply because the nomenclature is different, that's like saying biu-jee and sare tao choy are different strikes because they have different names. Silly, huh?
I await your reply with baited breath-(I had sashimi for lunch)
-Rik

[Phenix]

Paul,

Wiston and Gandhi who is right who is wrong?

British's strenght fade away with time.
And everyone can have neuclear bomb now.

But Gandhi's non violant inspration just begin... and not too many in the world dare to follow him.


it is already 2000, the era of matrix....

[PaulH]

Hendrix,

What do you think if England had Ghandi as the Prime Minister confronting the German war machine under Hitler during WWII? I rest my case. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrix,

What do you think if England had Ghandi as the Prime Minister confronting the German war machine under Hitler during WWII? I rest my case. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

First, the british lost to Ghandi and second
What do you think if Hitler's teacher is Ghandi? LOL

[PaulH]

Ghandi may become another Khmer Rouge- like leader and start an pure caste only ethnic cleansing movement in India? Hitler was a very persuasive man, you know! Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Paul H-

You underestimate Gandhi's (not Ghandi) ability to organize
non violent resistance and adapt to the challenge at hand.

The British were not exactly kind and benign in Jalianwalabagh
and other places. An important part of my boyhood was seeing
British smashing heads and firing(live bullets) into unarmed protestors.

Gandhi's approach was non violent but very comprehensive
in developing countervailing strength, leadership development,
jamming the performance of government functions, economic boycotts, strikes...
Innovation and creative thinking is not limted to the blitzkrieg or to methods of shock and awe.
Organizing the freedom movement in India was no easy task---
2nd largest population in the world, the sheer diversity of languages and religions and habits of parochialism- without modern communications.
Gandhian principles via MLK ennabled folks to deal with attack dogs, shootings and bombings in the civil rights movement in the
racism of the Old South in the US and via Cesar Chavez to organize migrant workers in the hot
tyrranical fields of cheap labor in parts of the southwest..

Consider the alternatives---dependence on firepower...we are headed for considerable spreading of nuclear weapons and portable weapons of mass destruction.

[yuanfen]

Hi Paul H- your levity misrepresents the real world in which Gandhi and Gandhians operated. Gandhi himself was not high caste. In developing leadership around him the folks had to be able to clean the latrines...nothing armchair about it. And he was not a fiery speaker. But still led by persuasion and example and organization.

A version of power comes from the barrel of a gun" made the Khmer Rouge possible and Kissinger's (the Nobel prize winner)
bloody hands undercut Sihanouk and helped bring about anarchy in Cambodia.
BTW- I am not ona soap box- just responding to your comments.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by TenTigers
and...I said shifting horse in response to situations AS they occur, not after. Again, bridge sensitivity is key-you push, I yield, and shift, allowing your energy to extend.
-Rik

One doesn't have to shift in WCK. Not only the bridge is sensitive the whole body is sensing.

Opponent pushes one doesn't yield and shift. one's Yee moves body vectors align and in the same instant opponent's force is neutralize and bounce back. shifting has lost one degree of freedom. one has been force out.

WCK is based on Small or minute details.. Called SLT. Based
Not on steel or Lion but humble human.
As it says, " Yee moves and Spirit is already there".



ChiSau is not about Bridge hand sensitivity.
Chi Sau is about something alive and ever changing.
Thus, Kiu Sau is not Chi Sau. Chi Sau doesn't fixed 12 kiu sau or 36 or 108.
all is one and one is all. It is about something alive. not something fix.
How can one fix what is alive?



Like a wind has no shape but a silk within it shown the wind. Like the water has no form but shows container's form.

The earth is wide and the heaven is vast. And, until one understand the neutralization and bounce back is once. how can one grasp at the third hand? Idea is cheap.

There are plenty of masters in WCK today can do these. They don't move thier body, they don't even move thier shoulder.


Hung GAr is not WCK. SLT is not Iron Wire. each has each's characteristics. Kok Gar Kok Faat or every house/style has thier own method. Nothing superior or inferior. A man and a woman are different.

got to go for more dreaming/training, depend who call it.

[MustafaUcozler]

Hi Hendrik,

You said that "plenty of masters can do this". This is interesting, since I have not seen many people at all who even understand and can show Wing chun properly...who are all these masters? I'm just curious.

Also, how would you definte "Yee"? Intent?

Take care,
Mustafa

[PaulH]

Hi Joy,

You ruined my humorous chat with Hendrix about the possible alternative universe and history timelines! But that is quite alright as I also enjoy your fascinating perspective on Gandhi.

Regards,

[Phenix]

Originally posted by MustafaUcozler
Hi Hendrik,

You said that "plenty of masters can do this". This is interesting, since I have not seen many people at all who even understand and can show Wing chun properly...who are all these masters? I'm just curious.

Also, how would you definte "Yee"? Intent?

Take care,
Mustafa

Hi Mustafa,

Since it is not good and disrespect for me to mention someone and missed out others....
so,
You can count for yourself starts from YM family elder Leong Seong, TST...... and there are other people from other families..

Since Joy, KJ, and YY knows more than me about YM family. You might want to ask their opinion privately?

Yee is intent.

[joy chaudhuri]

Paul H: Didnt intend to dampen humor-just some background on what Gandhi was about. It is an era that I know very well- first hand-not book learning. Gandhian non violence surrounded by a violent world.(War, terrorism, civil strife etc... had to learn how to take care of myself)

Hendrik- on intent... like anything else "Yee" has to be strengthened and clear. Right? Right- on shifting. Sometimes people shift prematurely because they have not devloped the ability to adjust their structure.

[TenTigers]

Hey Phenix, when yer done dreaming/training, can you answer the questions? -rather than walking the bow? So far all you have done is misquote, or quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions. as in, I never said slt was iron wire, or even related to it, or that there were fixed techniques in kiu sao.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by TenTigers
Hey Phenix, when yer done dreaming/training, can you answer the questions? -rather than walking the bow? So far all you have done is misquote, or quote out of context, and draw incorrect conclusions. as in, I never said slt was iron wire, or even related to it, or that there were fixed techniques in kiu sao.

Hey Tiger,

Reread what I wrote.

did I only express my view or I said you said SLT was Iron wire?

It is similar to in Chi Sau,
you do yours and I do mine.
Why do you have to care what I do? See, Chi sau doesn't has to follow rigid rule...

Tiger must has confident on what tiger did. Not disturb by a Fan Tan's Mun Sau right? is Mun Sau a kiu sau? Or Mun Sau similar to the Kung Jee Fook Fu or Fu Hock Siong Kuen's throwing stone asking for path?

Who cares who said what or which hand is kiu sau.... the closes between two points is Yee. so everyone can get creative.
why is everyone has to draw the same conclusions? as for correctness, on who's standard? The WCK I know is like water, flexible. thus, it doesn't has 12 or 18 or 36 or 108 rules... Relax. Let's think out of box as you suggested in your first post in this topic.

May be I am nuts. May be you don't like to embrace chaos like I do. hahahah Relax.

Joy is right shifting at Mun Sau is no no for WCK
IMHO, in WCK one doesn't talk about Kiu Sau. Since one only needs ----"Feelings, nothing more then feelings...." and embrace the chaos, and like water adapt to the situation, and decide to use the yee to intent or not.

As for the third hand, that is not the third kiu sau or secret kiu sau or pre-hiding kiu sau... it is about wck is air tight and has never ending hand similar to the flow of water.

Hey, Tiger, just think I am nuts. since I live in dream and you live in a physical and logical world. In dream world, there is no limitation of logic, it is as vast as I would like it to be. since I co-found my reality. Have Fun and don't worried!

Joy, Pual, Rene, YY, KJ, John.....I know I know it is too MATRIX


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FIrst the freedom of mind and Yee, only then there is a third hand.
If the mind is rigid, then there is only a pre-set third hand, that doesn't work with advance artists because that third hand is never an alive one.

[TenTigers]

Hey Phenix!
Funny guy! Are you saying Fan,Tan, Mun sao, or Fan Tung's Mun-Sau?-'cause my Sifu used to call me fan tung when he was exasperated with me!