Ranking

[curtis]

Hello all

Dose all wingchun schools use sashes to show rank? I remember reading something about knots sowen into something or another to show rank instead of sashes..Dose anyone know what is done in vietnam or mainland china or India?
any and all info would be welcome.
sincererly. C.A.G.

[Phil Redmond]

When I studied Shorinryu in Okinawa in the 60's there were only white and black belts. Colored belts were developed for the western market. Traditionally there were no ranks in Chinese martial arts. Seniority was based on the Confucianism. An example would be Sifu (teacher), Sihing (older brother), Sidai (younger brother), etc. It was more familial. Westerners are so used to hearing about ranks that some Chinese MA schools created ranks in order to compete with the Japanese/Korean MA schools. Most people will ask what rank are you regardles of what style you study. There are different schools of thought on ranking systems. My stand is sort of in the middle. On one side, ranks can help give a student a sense of accomplishment. Conversly, sometimes it's only about the rank and ego. Then there is the problem of "buying" rank in some schools. I happen to belong to an Association that uses rank. The Japanese and Korean ranks are usually similiar with a few exceptions. The Chinese MA schools that use rank may be completly opposite of each other. It's simply a matter of preference.

[yuanfen]

I dont pay attention to sash or belt colors. Wore a red sash when I began and 27 wing chun years later I still wear a red when i want to and if I can find it- even though I have taught a black belt or two in shotokan, tkd and kenpo among other cross overs from other arts.

Westerners like their merit badges.

I prefer the CMA way of keeping track of who began when- which Phil mentioned-familial relationships which has no direct relationship to comparative skills.

After all on a given day anyone can be humbled.

[Frank Exchange]

No, not all wing chun schools use sashes.

Many do. Mine doesn't.

Most of the schools I have seen in Hong Kong do not.

Some dont use sashes or belts, but have small badges.

Of the two of schools I visited in mainland china last year, neither had ranking sashes.

[TjD]

my school also doesnt have sashes. it's quite easy to tell whose your superior as soon as you touch their hands this means more and is a better indicator of skill than a pretty sash anyways.

[reneritchie]

There is no tradition of belt/sash or any kind of visible ranking in Wing Chun, or most TCMA. In the West, in modern times, some have adopted it as part of their model, but even then, there are no universal standards, criteria, or indicia.

[John Weiland]

Don't listen to the naysayers. I'm prepared to provide you with any certification of rank you desire---for a small consideration, of course.

Own your own authentic certificate of rank signed by whatever name you choose.

How does "Grandmaster" sound, signed by Bruce Lee? Hmmm? How about "Professor" with the appellation of any university president you want?

Seriously, this is just as factual as most MA masters' claims. Why should you be held to a higher standard?

Regard$,

[reneritchie]

Darn, John, that I-Mac is payin for itself already!!!

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Darn, John, that I-Mac is payin for itself already!!!

Hi Rene,

It beats the hand-drawn certificates that I used to give out.

BTW, I forgot to mention that a grandmaster ranking from me is as valid as any in Wing Chun, especially in the Yip Man lineage.

Regards,

[yuanfen]

John's rank specific certs are worth their weight in silver.

[apoweyn]

Colored belts were developed for the western market.

I was under the impression that Jigoro Kano came up with the belt system as part of his effort to make martial arts a part of an overall self-improvement curriculum. (He introduced it into Japanese schools, yes?)

If that's the case, then it wasn't developed solely for western sensibilities. Instead, it would have been developed to meet the psychological needs of various personalities types. The person doing judo as part of a self actualization process would potentially use many different measuring sticks. For some, success in competition. For others, they wouldn't bother, preferring to simply learn. But for others still, the incremental achieving of prescribed goals would be a useful part of the learning process.

Now, I'm not going to argue that the system hasn't gotten derailed. Red belts with white stripes. Eight-year-old black belts. And so on. It's all a bit much.


Stuart B.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by yuanfen
John's rank specific certs are worth their weight in silver.

Hi Joy,

Thanks for the plug. The orders are rolling in. Operators are standing by for the calls.

If someone needs a title or a rank to shore up their status, I question their skills. The familalial terms just represent the order in the "family," not the skill of the holder, except of course for sifu, which should be used selectively IMHO only for YOUR sifu, not Wing Chun teachers in general, since it does not represent a rank.

Regards,

[KingMonkey]

Ranks can have their uses, specifically for ensuring a measured and uniform progression through the system in terms of skills attained and material covered.
Maybe if Yip Man had used a method of ensuring same material covered, cohesiveness of message and skill levels achieved between his students our little WC family wouldnt be quite so dysfunctional and we'd all be singing from the same song sheet now.

Bigger base , higher pyramid.

Just my humble opinion........

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by apoweyn
I was under the impression that Jigoro Kano came up with the belt system as part of his effort to make martial arts a part of an overall self-improvement curriculum. (He introduced it into Japanese schools, yes?)

The system that Kano used only had 2 ranks. White & Black, he copied that idea from the swimming teams of the time where the "higher kids" had a black string tied around their waist.

Most system only had a curriculum till 5th Dan, all ranks above that were awarded on merits, contributions to the art, etc. NO limit at 10th Dan though, he simply never awarded anything higher.

AFAIK, the kyu ranks and coloured belts did not get added till after WW II.
Kids BB and Ladies BB I think were only added in the 70's.

There is a VERY good article written by j. Cunningham on this topic on the web, but I haven't got it bookmarked.

Will look on E-Budo for the link.

[apoweyn]

Thanks Taiji Monkey.

So what did ranking look like prior to Kano's black/white system? Were there no white or black belts before that?

Just curious.


Stuart B.