Chi Sau -That Push thing??

[S.Teebas]

Hi,

I was watching some clips of WSL doing Chi sau and in the clips he pauses mid roll and pushes his structure against the other person.

Do any other lines do this too?... im just asking becasue, I thought a continious roll was how chi sau should be practiced.

What is the reason behind moving the body back and forth when doing chi sau?

(This is not ment to be disrespectful of the different methods, im just curious as to the reason)

[blooming lotus]

maybe to gain a different angle for nxt application but not so proficient in wing chun per say ..any one else?

[yuanfen]

What? Bad habit? Not proficient? WSL doing chi sao?
Nonsense.
Watching chi sao specially when a top person is doing it-
you dont always know what is going on.
I dont know which specific clip you were looking at.
It could have beena testing of structure and balance
and sensing an open line.

BTW, FWIW...in talking witha couple of people of his generation-
he was perfectly capable of rolling a little bit and then just (controlled) hitting,

[yuanfen]

Reply to Empty Cup:

Joy did you ever meet and cross hands with him before he passed away?

((What do you mean by cross hands? I did look sao with WSL
and TST twice each- in San Francisco and Houston during their team trip to British Columbia and the US))



quote:
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It could have beena testing of structure and balance and sensing an open line
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you don't need to do that to do the things you listed above,

master or no master

((If you say so, master!:-
At certain levels of achievement- you can do many things.
Ali laid on the ropes sometimes- a no no for beginners. He leaned his head back at times- a no no for beginners.
But he knew what he was doing.))

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Hi,

I was watching some clips of WSL doing Chi sau and in the clips he pauses mid roll and pushes his structure against the other person.

Do any other lines do this too?... im just asking becasue, I thought a continious roll was how chi sau should be practiced.

What is the reason behind moving the body back and forth when doing chi sau?

(This is not ment to be disrespectful of the different methods, im just curious as to the reason)

A possible, perhaps likely explanation is that doing Chi Sao that way is training for the partner who receives the force. Likely, the other person in the video was a student of his, and WSL trained him that way to force him to tire (his muscles) and then to rely on structure. WSL was playing with him.

Regards,

[e-Warrior]

All this sounds similar to something my own Sifu (Kan Wah Chit) does.

He sometimes tries to rock your stance by pushing against your structure and then drawing back. All he's doing is testing the stability of your root etc. It sets up an irregular, rocking rhythm. I suspect that's what Wong was doing.

I wouldn't consider it to be a bat habit or wrong. Although chi-sao is unpredictable (you've got things coming in from all sides) you can get into a bit of a rut. I think another reason for this little test is to break out of that.

Plus, remember that these guys have mastered the system. Students haven't. Many sifus do things that they then scald their students for doing. The master "get away with it" so to speak.

[yuanfen]

Notes on Empty Cup's post:

did WSL do that with you when you rolled hands with him?

((I dont know which WSL shot we are comparing. But basically no.
Rolling and sharpening of listening jing))


I don't know about Augustine but Ho Kam Ming's students do that

((Apparently your values are different from mine. I dont call William Cheung "Bill". I generally call sifus by their last name unless I have their permission. Kenneth Chung's students call him Ken, His choice. he is still Cheung sifu AFAIAMC. I wouldnt call your
sifu by his first name.
I don't know which of HKM students you are referring to. I know some of them and what they do. Sometimes it involves a testing of body unity and line control. HKM did as much chi sao with Ip man as anyone. He also tested structure in his own way. There are subtle "signatures" of different folks in chi sao. Master Ho's good students know what they are doing. Of course there are diversities among individuals in all lineages. Often one can tell the teacher by touching a student if it is awell known lineage.
In boxing one can tell a Kronk gym guy, from a Teddy Atlas etc,
probaly same for Gracies versus other jj))

Oh to clarify I never said Wong didn't know what he was doing but some things he did might not be the best methods for other ppl. He made them work though so that's what's important.

((The key is what good sifus teach their best students. WSL, TST,
HLM, LS, LY didnt really have armchair video quarterbacks in mind)

For example his ready stance tends to already be shifted to one side. It looks good but then you can't really shift again...

((if you were his student possibly he would showyou))

Hmmm everytime his name comes up I fume that I didn't get a copy of that darn book...

((Which book? petersen's- its still available-just ask him)

btw Joy, why did you remove the link of your website?

((What link? Where? I don't keep up with my website. A student does and he is tinkering with it to do a newer version supposedly... which he will put up when he is ready. I barely usea pc keyboard. My site is at <www.azwingchun.com>))

I was only joking that time you know

((I dont know. You are assuming things- that a passing remark on the net would automatically result in changes in what i do or dont do. ))
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

((To ewarrior- I have done chi sao with Victor Kan sifu before during his Arizona visit. I am ina group pic. on his site. I have not checkedit lately))

[reneritchie]

When I've chi sao'd with some folks from WSL and some other lineage, I could feel definate instances of heavy pressure. When I inquired about it, the theory seemed to be--when do you 'go' in Chi Sao? ('Go' being transition from luk sao to free application chi sao). Do you just decide to go? Or do you go when you sense a defect? If you go when you sense a defect, can you not try to create defects so that you can 'go'?

Some lineages (don't know about WSL in specific in this case) want to get your weight onto (or even better) behind your heels before they 'go', since this is one of the precursors to a certain kind of structure breaking; a defect that they can move in on. To do this, some will press like you describe in in Luk Sao. (others will try to get you to press so they can pull you forward, others will try to get you to cross your own hands or waver too much to one side or the other, or make you think you can leak when you can't, or fake a defect they know they can cover, and so on and so on... becomes like chess).

[reneritchie]

As a personal student Leung Jan, Joy has also Chi Sao'd extensively with many of the past greats, real and imagined 8)

[yuanfen]

Rene- you are leaking out my secrets- you are not going to release the precious record of my chi sao with Dr. Leung Jan are you?
If you do- a thousand bi lingual ghosts will haunt you!!

Fortunately, you dont have the record of my journey with the Bodhidharma when he crossed the Yangtse on a reed boat.
It comes back to me whenever I stare at a wall or look at a
solitary sandal...but it vanishes when I stare at Catherine Zeta Jones for some reason....the root of all evil.

[Frank Exchange]

To be honest, this just sounds exactly like a foundation concept of WC, heavily emphasized by WSL, that of Lut Sao Jit Chung.

This emphasizes a strong springy forward prying force, the essence being that regardless of which direction your opponent going, your intent is forward. And it enables the old "hitting without realising a gap appears" thing that was discussed a while back. The pry initially is done from the elbows, when you get better the stance and elbows, and eventually when one gets good enough, from the stance alone.

Without the benefit of knowing exactly which clip it was, it sounds like Wong was just testing out the opponents structure with his lut sao jit chung. The pressure would be constant when transitional, but more when the tan/bong/fooks were in place.

Or, he may have just been mucking about, as he liked a joke. My instructor has a photo of him picking his nose when practicing the dummy

For what its worth, he could chisao incredibly lightly, with elbows totally relaxed and outward, then as soon as the opponent made a move, simply fook and punch with the same arm, totally destroying the opponents stance and structure.

[PaulH]

One of the great skills of WSL is his Baat Chaam Do. His hands and feet like delicate knives are razor sharped dissecting the opponent precisely where he is most empty or vulnerable from very light contact. A European fencer champion once challenged him. Wong had his knives right against his opponent's neck both times on the HK TV show. The 1st the opponent had just one foil?, the 2nd against both foils as the fencer complaining against his unfair use of two butterfly knives.

Regards,

[PaulH]

Just saw interesting e-warrior's comment. The practice that he rightly described is of a more advanced skill where you bombard the opponent with conflicting mental signals shutting down his defense and set up for the real heavy shot. Having felt the power of this sort of chi sau, I can say that it is truly disorienting!

Regards,

[PaulH]

It could be the sabre on the 2nd time. I'm not there hence my question mark on the foil on the previous post. Whatever it may have happened, Wong's skill at knives surpassed his opponent's. I have read and heard that the suddued opponent even asked Wong at the end to teach him this sword skill and Wong proceeded to show him Sim Lim Tau.

Regards,

P.S Here is the account told by Gary Lam who lived there at the time.

Traditionally Wing Chun teachers taught only qualified students, this is do to the fact that if they learned to soon and then later attempted to use the knives, it would almost certainly end in disaster. An analogy of this would be trying to teach an average automobile driver how to race cars, and then entering them in a professional race. This is a scenario for tragedy; the unqualified car racer would be lucky to stay alive in such a dangerous situation. The same can be said about learning the knives; the student must be ready to learn if the training is to have meaning. And in case your worried if the Baat Jaam Do has lost its fighting spirit in our modern day, several years ago my Sifu, the late Wong Shun Leung, sparred with a champion western fencer on television. Wong easy beat the fencer, and when the fencer complained Wong had an unfair advantage with two swords, Wong offered him a second blade and beat him again. Afterwards the fencer petitioned Wong for instruction, he happily agreed and proceeded to introduce him to Siu Nim Tao, the first stage of Wing Chun training. Thus Wong by example reiterated the truth of Baat Jaam Do understanding and usage, the practitioner must master Wing Chun first if the hands are to become knives. Much like wisdom, learning the Baat Jaam Do is difficult and rare; few are ready to tread its razor edge of excellence.

[PaulH]

You're welcomed! I once played chi sau with this guy who had BJD training. His hands went through me like knifes to the butter! Scary stuffs!

Regards,