Shaolin-Do answers challenge.

[Shaolin-Do]

Cool. Thanks.

[Skummer]

Check this out..

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates...-83-811.jsp#12

Scroll down a bit to the pic of Li Baoshu. He looks a heck of a lot like Su Kong.

[Judge Pen]

Isnt' that akin to saying that all people of _________ ethnic origin look alike?

All hairy wolfmen look like Su Kong Tai Jin.

[Skummer]

No, most people who suffer from hypertrichosis do not look alike. Su Kong had a very "chewbacca-like" look to him. Li Baoshu also has this. Most people who have hypertrichosis that I've seen are not so universally covered nor does their "fur" generally grow long the way it has on both of these men.

[Judge Pen]

Dam n. You've got me with the Chewbacca connection. I always walk inot that argument.

You are right, they favor one another but I couldn't say if they were the same person.

[Shaolin-Do]

The dudes hair in that pic is more waivy. Unless they gave su kong a hair straightener before his pic?

[brothernumber9]

It seems much of the flaming of SD is spurned from statements that one of SD's masters had learned everything there was to learn at a shaolin temple. This seems really incredulous to most people, compounded with the fact that many styles have added more forms and in some cases techniques so that a current student may think, "our style has over 100 forms in them and one of them is sacred and only passed on to one individual of each generation, and ____ ga, and ____ ga style each also have 100 forms and a few sacred forms, there's no way one person could know all that"
Many styles started with only a few or several forms, some had no forms at all just sets of techniques, theories, philosophies and principles. Even considering this it still seems unlikely that anyone could learn or get taught everything.
Regardless of all these things SD too has added forms, many of which are certainly taught at the Henan temple now. So even if SD started as a "Sham" with some forms that were literally just mish mashed and made up. Those arguments can no longer be made as a whole toward the system. There seems to be room to argue about lineage specifics, but it seems proving that the picture wasn't su kong or that he didn't or did have a hair growing disease or when he lived if at the temple, north or south etc. would not affect what seems to be taught now. But that brings up a question if the material being taught is being taught correctly, and then that argument could very easily lead into the fighting versus forms and/or fighting with forms debates which would probably then go to either the bjj/mma vs everything else debate or the san shou vs TCMA debate which would ultimately end up on the Ross vs Abel thread on the kung fu forum. what's the point? I guess there is none.

[trilobite]

I noticed Li Bushao's (sp?) "moustache" was a little shorter and more wild than any picture I have seen of Tai Djin's. But overall, I've seen several pictures of the same type of long hair from the disorder.

[trilobite]

ALL CMA's have questionable lineage, and ALL have been modified. THERE IS NO LONGER AN ORIGINAL. So why does everyone still care? I'm sick of this debate.

[MasterKiller]

True, but you are over-looking the obvious....

Not ALL CMA teacher's write a book proclaiming themselves as the only true lineage holder of traditional Shaolin kung fu.

[illusionfist]

Originally posted by brothernumber9
Regardless of all these things SD too has added forms, many of which are certainly taught at the Henan temple now. So even if SD started as a "Sham" with some forms that were literally just mish mashed and made up. Those arguments can no longer be made as a whole toward the system. There seems to be room to argue about lineage specifics, but it seems proving that the picture wasn't su kong or that he didn't or did have a hair growing disease or when he lived if at the temple, north or south etc. would not affect what seems to be taught now...

So let me get this straight. By virtue of having a few forms that are common forms practiced at the temple now, this somehow validates the entire system and makes all the crookeds straight?

So if i'm passing ballet off as gung for years and somebody finally is on to me, I go and learn a few legit gung fu forms and now my system is gung fu?

Peace []

[trilobite]

I realize that, I just don't care. I believe GM Sin holds so much knowledge that I could never learn it just hurts my brain sometimes, whether or not it be original Shaolin, I REALLY don't care. And that's the attitude I notice you'll get with a lot of people in our system. We either care a whole lot, or not at all. The point is that the material works, the training works, and we who enjoy it have a blast. Other than that, why else would someone care in the first place. I've noticed GM Sin's claims only seem to bother people outside the system, this is understandable, but I've thought about them myself, I've decided that two brothers who went to UK could NEVER fool so many people, or develop a system that so much resembles many other arts in all of it's aspects. (Let's not get into the subtleties of different styles again, ok) Let alone the fact that they could NEVER con so many people, eventually they'd be found out. If you EVER tell a really elaborate lie, eventually, someone will find out that it's not the truth, our system has been in the U.S. for what? 35 years? and it's still going. If you won't acknowledge the GM's for their martial ablitity, acknowledge their ability to keep a business running, (without running out of new material to teach students for 30 years.)

[Fu-Pow]

I would say that the picture of Li Baoshu looks helluva ALOT like the picture of Su Kong Tai Djin. The pictures are taken from different angles and the picture on open democracy.net he has hair that is more messed up.

But it you compare the facial proportions, the lower lip, the pattern of the hair and the right eye compared to the eyes of Su Kong. They look a hell of a lot alike.

I'd venture to guess this is the same person.

We just need a corroborating photograph that identifies him more clearly.

I searched google looking for more pictures of Li Baoshu but I couldn't find any.

Does anyone know somewhere else we can look?

[FISTOFMERCY]

Wow.
I had no idea that there was so much hostility directed toward Shaolin-Do and it's practitioners.

First, I salute the Shaolin-Do practitioners who have stood up to defend our art with courtesy, respect, and eloquence. You have done well.

Second, I salute all who study and preserve the arts of Shaolin. We are brothers and sisters long separated, but brothers and sisters still.

Shame to those who sully the names of these great arts by lowering themselves to name-calling and such. Totally dispicable.

I have studied Shaolin-Do for a good while, mainly from Grandmaster Sin and Elder Master Leonard. And have had the opportunity to converse with each on many occassions. To put it simply, Grandmaster Sin The is real. He is what he says he is and much more.

My fellow students have done very well, but I want to address a few topics personally. Sorry, I don't have time to quote. I know it's rude, but daylight's burning here.

When Su Kong entered the temple, it was as an abandoned infant, rescued by some compassionate monks. He did not enter of his own will like everyone else. In this sense he was not a typical monk. He was raised there, with guidance of all the teachers and masters. Imagine what that would have been like, to be treated like a son or a favorite nephew of these great men.
He was free to study with any master who wanted to teach him. His whole life was Shaolin. This is how we gained so much material.

The Japanization of our system is a non-issue to me, but lets look at it anyway. Short and sweet--Grandmaster Ie was a wanted man. The changes to Japanese ranking and terminology were cosmetic only, to disguise the art in Indonesia. Some in our system have reverted back to "kung-fu" uniforms, changed the "Do" to "Tao", and so on. Ultimately it doesn't matter. Pour tomato soup in a coke bottle, and you still have tomato soup. However, speaking personally, I will always wear the gi to honor Grandmaster Ie.

To those who say we are a "mismash":

Shaolin-Do is truly unique. In traditional training, you only study one style in depth. I'm not in any way knocking this approach. In fact until the birth of Su Kong, that was pretty much your only option. But because of Grandmasters Su, Ie, and Sin, we have the opportunity for a broadbased martial arts education. I realize that this is hard for the "traditional" student to grasp. I'm not saying it's better, its just a new alternative. As we say in Shaolin-Do, "There are many roads up Hua mountain."

Because this approach is so radically different, it is difficult if not impossible to compare Shaolin-Do to other styles. Our material begins with basics and grows in complexity as the student progresses through the ranks, which is probably similar to how everyone else trains. The difference is the amount of material we possess. We call this "our blessing and our curse."

It is a blessing because we can compare styles as we progress and see how they complement each other. It really trains your mind and memory. Imagine trying to remember over 100 forms. Probably sounds impossible to some of you, but I assure you it's not that hard. Like everything else it just takes practice.

It is a curse because of outside observers who comment on our forms being sloppy, and because of the strain on our brains. But this is like comparing apples and oranges. That Shaolin-Do practitioner you're dogging may be performing just one several dozen forms he or she knows. They're not going to look like someone who has 10 or 15 forms that they have been polishing for decades. I mean if all you have is 10 or 15 forms, there is no excuse for them not to be polished to a high shine. In Shaolin-Do, we are a little more forgiving, because, heck, people have lives.

And someone asked about the laugh in our Hsing I LInkage form. This is a psychological attack. We were taught that the old Hsing-I fighters were fierce and loved to fight. And they also liked to make there opponents think they were crazy. Imagine fighting someone, giving them all you had and suddenly they just look at you and laugh like some maniac. Then their face goes emotionless as they pound you to oblivion. This is probably not the only reason, but it works for me. We also do this in the Li Ti Kui drunken immortal form as well.

There were a couple of other things I wanted to address, but I've wasted too much time as it is. Our time is much better spent practicing our arts and improving ourselves than in childish arguments.

Ultimately this hostility and bickering is sad indeed. We have so much to offer each other. So much could be gained by cooperation on both sides, but it looks like it will never happen.

Regardless, the spirit of Shaolin is indestructible and will endure forever no matter what its manifestation.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by FISTOFMERCY

When Su Kong entered the temple, it was as an abandoned infant, rescued by some compassionate monks. He did not enter of his own will like everyone else. In this sense he was not a typical monk. He was raised there, with guidance of all the teachers and masters. Imagine what that would have been like, to be treated like a son or a favorite nephew of these great men.
He was free to study with any master who wanted to teach him. His whole life was Shaolin. This is how we gained so much material.

The whole is existence of this Su Kong Tai Djin is ridiculous. There are so many points that have already been argued and your SD brethren have not had good answers for. You guys are completely ignorant of historical research that was done ages ago and for the most part is accepted. Until you guys read up on some actual research done by actual historians and archeologists its ridiculous to even argue with you.

The Japanization of our system is a non-issue to me, but lets look at it anyway. Short and sweet--Grandmaster Ie was a wanted man. The changes to Japanese ranking and terminology were cosmetic only, to disguise the art in Indonesia. Some in our system have reverted back to "kung-fu" uniforms, changed the "Do" to "Tao", and so on. Ultimately it doesn't matter. Pour tomato soup in a coke bottle, and you still have tomato soup. However, speaking personally, I will always wear the gi to honor Grandmaster Ie.

It's a nice story but not very plausible. Besides, we're not just pointing to how you guys dress but how you move. The fact that you practice bare foot, use nunchuks, call your forms katas, your tournaments are referred to as karate tournaments, you attribute your curriculum to this general idea of Shaolin but teach things that could never have been taught at Shaolin. Wearing gis is only the tip of the iceberg. We're looking at the whole picture here. There are Chinese styles that have adopted this or that Japanese (or similar to) Japanese custom. Hell, I was just in New York and met the Fu Jow Pai teacher. His students wear something akin to a gi. But that's as far as it goes. They call him Sifu, they wear shoes when they practice, they folllow all the other traditions EXCEPT one.....

To those who say we are a "mismash":

Shaolin-Do is truly unique. In traditional training, you only study one style in depth. I'm not in any way knocking this approach. In fact until the birth of Su Kong, that was pretty much your only option. But because of Grandmasters Su, Ie, and Sin, we have the opportunity for a broadbased martial arts education. I realize that this is hard for the "traditional" student to grasp. I'm not saying it's better, its just a new alternative. As we say in Shaolin-Do, "There are many roads up Hua mountain."

Again you confuse the issue. What you guys are not is a new modern version of the Chin Woo association where many martial arts were taught. The major difference is that Chin Woo brought in recognized experts in their style to teach a variety martial arts. You guys claim to have ONE person who is master of 900 forms and many styles that have very little relation to each other. This is not a NEW or revolutionary way to teach. It goes against everything that CMA is about ie the indepth study of one or maybe two given arts. Fighting is not complicated. You probably only need 5-6 combinations to win. But you have to practice these again and again so they are committed to muscle memory. You guys pull stuff from many styles that don't work together. Its a stupid way to learn martial arts.

Because this approach is so radically different, it is difficult if not impossible to compare Shaolin-Do to other styles. Our material begins with basics and grows in complexity as the student progresses through the ranks, which is probably similar to how everyone else trains. The difference is the amount of material we possess. We call this "our blessing and our curse."

You know what really cracks me up about your curriculum is that you place some arts as higher level then other arts. That's totally inane because its not about which art you do but how well you understand it.....that is of course if your doing something authentic to begin with.

It is a blessing because we can compare styles as we progress and see how they complement each other. It really trains your mind and memory. Imagine trying to remember over 100 forms. Probably sounds impossible to some of you, but I assure you it's not that hard. Like everything else it just takes practice.

Compare styles against what. You can't compare because you don't have mastery of any one style. And furthermore your teachers are not masters of any of the styles that they teach. It's the blind leading the blind.

It is a curse because of outside observers who comment on our forms being sloppy, and because of the strain on our brains. But this is like comparing apples and oranges. That Shaolin-Do practitioner you're dogging may be performing just one several dozen forms he or she knows. They're not going to look like someone who has 10 or 15 forms that they have been polishing for decades. I mean if all you have is 10 or 15 forms, there is no excuse for them not to be polished to a high shine. In Shaolin-Do, we are a little more forgiving, because, heck, people have lives.

You just stated the case AGAINST Shaolin Do. It's a ridiculous way to learn martial arts. What are you going to do in a fight when you've got 100 forms from 10 different martial arts that have nothing to do with each other swirling around in your head?
I'll tell you what you're gonna do: Your gonna get your ass handed to you by someone who practices one art, and a handful of core techniques over and over again to perfection. Whether it be Shotokan Karate or Liu He Ba Fa.....

And someone asked about the laugh in our Hsing I LInkage form. This is a psychological attack. We were taught that the old Hsing-I fighters were fierce and loved to fight. And they also liked to make there opponents think they were crazy. Imagine fighting someone, giving them all you had and suddenly they just look at you and laugh like some maniac. Then their face goes emotionless as they pound you to oblivion. This is probably not the only reason, but it works for me. We also do this in the Li Ti Kui drunken immortal form as well.

What are you guys doing Chinese opera or real martial art? This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. And further more your guys "drunken" forms are totally ridiculous too especially the one called "Stomping Mad Drunken Immortal" or whatever. They have very little fighting application compared to real drunken forms. Your forms just look like someone trying to imitate drunken kung fu.

I've said enough. Everything you've brought up has already been argued many times here.

I'm sorry to say it but I opinion of most of you SD guys is that you are ignoramous'.