Shaolin-Do answers challenge.

[trilobite]

I really don't care, but it's uber sad that you spent that much time on something so meaningless as that. We're only brought right back to where we started. All people can post are opinions and theories because honestly, NONE OF USE WERE THERE!

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Fu Pow,

I think you did a faux pau. You said:

"And further more your guys 'drunken' forms are totally ridiculous too especially the one called "Stomping Mad Drunken Immortal" or whatever. They have very little fighting application compared to real drunken forms. Your forms just look like someone trying to imitate drunken kung fu."

The 8 immortals in an actual system. (Chue Pa Hsien) It is not unique to SD. Other people practice it. The Stomping Immortal was Hsiang Chung Li. You can argue that we aren't doing these forms correctly. I've grown thick skinned to that, but I'm sure you just defamed some other martial artists that specialize in this area.

Let's go back to arguing about sais and nunchuckus and whether you can do kung fu barefoot.

So where did Sin The pick up this system then?

Can you name some other practitioners that do the forms you guys do?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by trilobite
I really don't care, but it's uber sad that you spent that much time on something so meaningless as that. We're only brought right back to where we started. All people can post are opinions and theories because honestly, NONE OF USE WERE THERE!

Hmmmm......does this sound familiar:

"often denies that there is such a thing as historical truth, clinging to the extreme skeptical notion that only what is absolutely certain can be called 'true' and nothing is absolutely certain, so nothing is true"

You also imply that the opinions and theories that have been posted here are by people who are uneducated about the history of martial arts. Illusionfist has posted some very detailed and accurate stuff which you guys choose to ignore. As I understand it he's even taken classes in Chinese history. Have you guys done even close to the same?

And BTW, don't try to tell ME what's "ubersad." Your just as invested in this thread as anyone else so don't try to frame things as though I'm some pathetic loser and your not. At least come out and say it if that's what you really think.

[Brad]

I just emailed the people who lectured on the picture of Su Kong.

We may soon know the origin of that picture.

I'd be quakin in your boots SD fellas....

It will either
1.prove Shaolin-Do legit(as they actually refer to him as Shaolin Master)
or
2.They got their photo from Shaolin-Do. Which leads back to where everyone's at right now

The SD folks would have everything to gain and nothing to lose as far as debate is concerned, so I don't see how they'd be "quakin".

[themeecer]

I stand by my statements MK and Trilobite.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
I think it explains a lot, and I think it'll never be embraced by the people who dictate SD policy...even if it is true, it'll be glossed over. Why? Check Serp's post. That's the attitude that would have to be combated, and why deal with it?

Which post is that?

[Skummer]

I found those 2 links via google. First I searched for "hypertrichosis china" and got the Li Baoshu pic. Then I searched "hypertrichosis su kong" and found the other 2.

--------

I must say however that while I find the discussion on history/lineage interesting and important from an ethical standpoint, I think the real question one should ask is "does SD produce competant fighters?".

I mean, we are talking about a martial arts school, right? If their students can defeat students from other schools with comparable experience, then they're getting what they paid for.

It has been my experience that SD can produce competant fighters since they do spar regularly, although I think it's VERY much dependant on the individual's personal training and ambition rather than class time/belt rank. As you all know, many MA schools don't do any sparring at all.

I personally just can't get worked up over where such & such form came from, etc. Though I do think that if you learn a form, you ought to know what that form represents from beginning to end AND practice the base applications regularly. I think SD lacks this component.

BTW, I hold a 2nd black in SD in case anybody was wondering. Though I train judo mostly now.

[Golden Tiger]

I love dropping by from time to time to see what my good friend Fu-Pow is up to. If nothing else, he is dedicated to his pursuit to show once and for all that Shaolin-Do is a fake, a fraud , a phony. I have to give him this, he spends a heck of a lot of time searching out glitches in the history and what-not of SD. He has presented compeling evidence that what he believes is the truth and if you lived by the words of this forum, you would probably have to side with him.

But I still have to wonder about his motivation. Surely he should know that all his hard work and tireless postings are not going to accomplish anything. Perhaps he does this as a hobby and if so, each to his own.

He reminds me of a gentleman that I once debated. He was a creation scientist and I an evolutionist (not to turn the thread to religion, just an example). We went back and forth for hours, citing examples, quoting published papers, going to website that backed up our respective sides and on and on. Each of us was able to show without a shadow of a doubt in our opinion that we were right and the other was wrong. But at the end of the day, he walked away a creation scientist and I was still an evolutionist.

So, Fu my friend, do what you must to get your point across. Spend the rest of you life in this forum and type till your fingers bleed. The bottom line is that unless you just really enjoy typing, you are wasting your time. (I, by the way only read this at work so I am getting paid to do it...shhh, don't tell my boss)

I know that the reply will be "once again, you have avoided the question because you can't prove anything!!!". But the thing is is that I have nothing to prove. My proof for SD is when I teach one of my students to do something that they had never thought possible or when I learn something after being a MA for 24 years that completely amazes me. Then there the response you like to quote "but Master Sin's such a good guy". Well, yes he is. And reguardless of where SD came from, You, myself or no one else I have ever met has been able to show or come up with what he has taught out. It seems that most of the fraud busters (as I like to call them) base their opinions on what they have seen on a website or on a limited exposure to SD. And then theres the ones that trained and left for who know what reason that enjoy slamming SD. I don't hold their opinion very highly because they probably left on bad terms for some reason. Why don't you come and let me teach you (pro bono) for a few years and then base your opinion on real life experience.

SD'ers have been refered to as a "cult-like" following. Thats kind of silly but don't you wonder why? Personally, I think its because of people like Master Sin and the other senior students and their efforts to convey the material out to the students. I have met many other MA instructors in my years and with few exceptions, they are more interested in ego building or money that teaching what they know.

Ok, work time. Fu, I would expect no less than a few quotes and slams from you. I anxiously await........

[illusionfist]

Hmmm, I'd like to comment on a few things and let some folks know where I'm coming from-

For one, aside from actually going and learning the stuff (which I feel is completely not necessary in this instance), I've had a pretty good exposure to Shaolin Do. I've had ex-students who were members of the org (two of which were former instructors) who have given me candid descriptions of the org and they have also laid out what they think are the strong points and negative points of the org based from their separate, yet similar, experiences. By the way, both of them taught in different cities and had not met each other- I taught them at different times.

Two- I have actually gone and met Shaolin Do members (and CSC members) from other areas, travelled to their cities and met them, exchanged info, crossed hands with them, etc. Since my pai is based out of Australia, we've had the pleasure of meeting the representatives of the Soard's there as well.

Thanks to the generosity of TWS, I was given the opportunity to go and see one of Joe Schaefer's tournaments, all of which I have on film and can readily access for any reference if the need arises. All the footage is of instructor level practitioners I assume. They are all 2nd black and up. The footage covers forms, weapons, and fighting (point sparring).

Three- I've also been fortunate enough to have some older Shaolin Do members/ex-members give me footage from the early 80's of both Sin and Hiang before they split up. Thanks to some others, I was even given the old PBS series that Sin and Hiang both had at one point.

Basically the point I'd like to make is that, although I do not consider myself an authority by any means, I sincerely ask the SD members of the board to not just immediately write off people and think they have no experience with the SD org and its members, and actually try to give some honest answers to the questions being asked by those of us who are actually trying to have a logical debate about the whole thing.

My focus of argument is on the historics and actual logic of dissemination of the system (although previously I tried to keep the argument at system specific principles to no avail). My scholastic pursuits specialize in the area of Asian Studies with a focus on the history and sociology of Southern China. One of the main cultural paradigms from which I've based studies is from that of the Triads and secret societies that were prevalent in the past. By virtue of this, I often find that my studies bring me into the world of gung fu histories as well. The common consensus amongst the SD members of the board seems to lie around the idea that gung fu histories are often clouded with misinformation and are oftentimes not able to be verified. From a certain point of view this is true, however, there are plenty of gung fu systems out there that can trace their lineages back a decent amount of time. When we argue about SD's lineage, the fact remains that the crux of the argument in relation to your lineage is only 2 generations away- A generation gap that an overwhelming amount of gung fu lineages can verify. So the argument that history is not able to be verified really doesn't apply.

Also the logic of the entire history doesn't make sense. Although the generation breakdown for each system is relative, the history that is being given to your patriarch Su Kong (which is only two generations away from your grandmaster Sin The') is in line with founding members of entire systems almost 8-10 generations ago. Even if Su Kong lived a long time, this still doesn't explain the many generations that have been skipped. The history doesn't add up.

I'd like to ask the members who keep bringing up the fighting aspect (as well as fitness, holistic health, camraderie, etc) to please not use that as a basis for argument. The efficacy of history and the efficacy of fighting technique are two wholly different things. With fighting the defining factor is the individual and there are too many other factors that can come into play that have no bearing on the actual efficacy of technique. Your skill at using a ping choi has no bearing on the life of Su Kong and his exploits.

Peace

[Radhnoti]

Serpent - "Which post is that?"

This one Serp.

Serpent - "I think the truest description has just been posted and people are overlooking it!

Shaolin-Do is not a martial art at all. It's a bunch of circus tricks that have since been systematised into something resembling a martial art.

I'm quite prepared to believe this possibility. Although I suggest the name is changed to reflect this. Perhaps Circus-Do."




illusionfist, what do you think about the possibility of a "circus" travelling around with people skilled in Chinese martial arts? Commonplace in China? Possible? Thanks for your time.

[Bluesman]

I am surprised that of all the opinions of Master Su that I have read so far, or skipped over depending on the author, none have stated what I thought was the obvious. That Master Su would want to be remembered for something other than having hair that covered his entire face. After all he did have quite a bit of time on his hands as the Chinese peasents would not accept him.
Master Sin said that most master's learned 3 or 4 styles. Bruce Lee studied nearly 20 CMA not including the other Asian styles of Muy Thai etc. He died at 33 years old and yet no one questioned his knowledge of theories. Of course I am no way wanting to compare somone of unatural abilities to members of SD.
Golden Tiger, Haven't you noticed how different each one of us spars? I recall Master Sin telling the class during a sparring and conditioning class that by sparring each other we take what works from each other. Everybody has something to share, regardless of their rank. That is what I thought I would find on here. Not as much learning as what I thought it would have been.
For a while I sparred with members of a Japanese karate school.
I have to laugh when I read others state we do our katas like karate. Been to two dojos and could not tell the difference between the two different Japanese styles, but in no way did it look remotely SD.
But I did pick up a move from a brown belt there. While we were sparring, he was very reserved as he was scared that he would be hurt. I had done very well at a previous class against one of their black belts. The move I learned was from his hesitation. He started to throw a straight punch and I saw it coming but then he almost stopped it just from where I was going to redirect it. I thought he was going to withdraw it and pull back into a defensive stance. I belive he had second thoughts when he started to throw it, but he went ahead and threw it hard. By now I had not felt as if I had to be concerned with this punch coming at my face, rather my nose, when all of sudden BAM. It hit me hard. I have used this feint several times sparring with other black belts with the same results.

[illusionfist]

Originally posted by Bluesman
I Bruce Lee studied nearly 20 CMA not including the other Asian styles of Muy Thai etc. He died at 33 years old and yet no one questioned his knowledge of theories. Of course I am no way wanting to compare somone of unatural abilities to members of SD.

I think somebody has already touched on this and I hope that this isn't used again, but just because Bruce Lee "studied" a varied amount of arts doesn't mean he CLAIMED these arts. I've had experience outside of my chosen arts of Hung Gar and Tai Ji, including CLF, Bak Mei, Bagua, Hsing Yi, My Jhong Law Horn, Baji, Tong Bei, etc. I dont claim competency in any of them- even those that I know forms up to a senior level in.

Specialization is the eventual goal in martial arts. This sentiment has been echoed by many of the SD'ers here on the board. The only problem that most of us have is that you can't specialize in something to an effective level when your instructor isn't of that specialty. It's like having a 200lb heavyweight teach you how to fight like a 120lb lightweight. They might be able to show you the ropes, but they wont have the depth of specific specialization.

Somebody mentioned that if you lock yourself away for 20 years, you can master a form. This might be true, depending on what you learned. There is also the very real possibility that you might waste 20 years because there was no proper instruction on system specific principles, lineage transmission, knowledge of the construction of the form (i.e. placement of certain patterns, why they were changed, etc), system specific methods (faht), etc..."

Peace

[illusionfist]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
illusionfist, what do you think about the possibility of a "circus" travelling around with people skilled in Chinese martial arts? Commonplace in China? Possible? Thanks for your time.

It's an interesting theory, the only problem is the time period. The Ching would not have tolerated this considering the anti-govt sentiment that was common amongst martial fraternities of the time. Now if there was some type of Circus/ Opera hybrid, this might be an avenue for exploration, because the opera troops were seen in a totally different light. Even then, they were eventually hunted down depending on the location.

Peace

[Radhnoti]

Here's another question, if you don't mind. Would travelling shows originating in China be able to cross into Korea unmolested? Could a Korean migration be similar to "crossing the border to Old Mexico" from the U.S. old west days? That is to say, I know many fleeing the Chinese regime went south, but I'm wondering how those who fled East fared?
Thanks, again, for taking the time to give your opinion on this subject.

[Judge Pen]

Fu Pow:

8 drunken immortals: A quick google search will answer your own question. You will find several SD and non-SD schools referenceing this style. CLF teaches these forms as well Here a couple of links:

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/H...immortals.html

http://www.stlouishunggar.com/html/styles.html

http://www.joybotsin.com/

and, from kungfumagazine:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/maga...hp?article=139