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Thread: Thoughts on lineage, purity, fighting ability and style....whew!!

  1. #1
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    Thoughts on lineage, purity, fighting ability and style....whew!!

    So there are a lot of debates going around about lineage, style, authenticity, ability, what's internal, what's external, etc, etc. It just seems to go around in circles with no end. I'm not saying that I can put an end to this but I would just like to voice some of my own opinions.

    Who the hell am I to have an opinion. Well I've studied MA's intensively for the last seven years with some very well known and some not well known masters of kung fu. These styles have included Hung Ga (for about 1 year), Hun Yuan Xin Yi Chen Taiji (5 years) and Choy Lay Fut (7 years).

    I don't claim to be a master in any of these styles but I think that in CLF I am getting to the point where I could have my own school and my own students.

    All of the style I've trained are remarkably different both in strategy and in body mechanics.

    Here are my observations:

    -Lineage and Ability

    Your lineage says SOMETHING about your ability. If you come from a well respected lineage then chances are high that you have good ability. This is not always the case though. There are people that were given lineage that let there training slack and there ability has suffered. Kung fu is like swimming up stream if you trained hard for 6 months and then you slack for a few months it will take you 6 months to "swim up" to the level you were at before. In order to maintain your ability you must keep practicing just as hard or harder then when you were learnin from your Sifu.

    -Ability to teach vs. fighting ability

    There are people in MA's that are good fighters and so-so teachers. There are people that are good teachers and so-so fighters. What you should avoid is people that are good teachers and crappy fighters or good fighters and crappy teachers.

    Some people are just better fighters naturally. They are natural athletes. They possess speed, strength and undaunted courage. Key components to winning a fight. They would probably win no matter what their style. However, in order to be able to pass on the knowledge of their art they must have a systematic way of doing so. In order to reach a higher level of proficiency a systematic study will allow them to do that. They must have some intelligence, people skills and patience and be willing to tolerate the people who just don't instantly "get it."

    Some people were born crappy fighters. They are not natural athletes. Martial arts is a struggle for them. But they persisted and struggled and worked their ass off to get to a certain level of athleticism. They often make better teachers because they have "been there" themselves. You won't see them winning tournaments or being the "best of the best" but at the same time they should be able to defend themselves effectively using the fundamentals of there chosen art.

    Internal vs. External-

    Internal and external arts share some of the same attributes but in some ways they are fundamentally different.

    It is NOT true that an External art will reach the same level of "internalness" as an art who's focus is internal if it is just practiced long enough. But it will become internal "enough" to be very effective.

    Internalness equates to 6 core things:

    1) Use of refined strength of the tendons and alignment of bones and joints rather than muscular force. Elongation rather and contraction of the muscles.

    2) A bias towards NOT using force AGAINST force.

    3) Chan Si Jin or "Silk Reeling Energy." The human musculature is composed of a double helical spirals. In order to keep the muscles relaxed the body must move in spiral motion.

    4) Coordination of movement through the waist . All joints of the body rotating simultaneously as one unit.

    5) A relaxed yet focused mind.

    6) An emphasis on slow training and body awareness before application of technique.


    Now, its not to say that so called External arts don't posses or train for these same qualities. It's just that they are not as DEPENDENT on these qualities in order for their art to work.

    If you are doing an art like Taiji and you don't possess all of these qualities your art will not work very well if at all. The techniques of the art are built around these qualities.

    External arts work more on force on force applications, development of natural muscular force and specific techniques.

    The inclusion of internal training in an external art can add to the efficacy of the art but they are not DEPENDENT on it. This makes them quicker to learn and easier to understand and apply.

    Just some thoughts. You might agree or disagree but this is my perspective.

  2. #2
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    my opinions on internal energy/arts

    Cultivating qi is the abilty to to bring your breath, muscles, body mechanics and electric energy(for lack of better term) into one movement and exert in sync all at the same time. For someone to do this on a single movement it would take 10+ years for a one movement execution.

    For someone to be able to do this throughout a course of a fight and be able to use this at different points of the fight and to have it "on call" will take another 10 + years.

    This is why it makes it hard to beleive some people possess this after 5-10 years of study. This is also why internal arts are out numbered by external arts(truly)

    Just some thoughts I've been having and didnt want to start another thread. Sorry if its off topic

    Arhat
    Arhat of Fury

  3. #3
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    Originally posted by Arhat of Fury
    my opinions on internal energy/arts

    Cultivating qi is the abilty to to bring your breath, muscles, body mechanics and electric energy(for lack of better term) into one movement and exert in sync all at the same time. For someone to do this on a single movement it would take 10+ years for a one movement execution.

    Arhat
    Well I'm trying to stay away from terms like "Qi" because there is not a good English translation of this word. "Qi" can mean anything from electrical energy to the metaphysical force of the universe.

    Breath definitely comes into it though but this also relates to having a relaxed mind and body unity.

    I agree that it's hard to believe someone could be able to understand and apply internal body mechanics and principles after only 5-10 years of study.

    Thanks for your comments.
    Last edited by Fu-Pow; 10-24-2003 at 04:05 PM.

  4. #4
    Say what? 5 - 10 years?
    I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows

    The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

    Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

    DM


    People love Iron Crotch. They can't get enough Iron Crotch. We all ride the Iron Crotch for the exposure. Gene

    Find the safety flaw in the training. Rory Miller.

  5. #5
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    Whew, where to start? I guess we could debate these points, but I think you can come to your own excellent conclusions, so I'll just state my opinions for your consideration.

    1. Lineage means nothing to anyone outside of self respect for your own background. It is not an indication of a teacher or students ability. Either you will train hard or you will not be good.

    2. If you have a good capacity to remember how you learned, than you will be able to teach. Being a good fighter does not make you a good teacher but it will make a good teacher a better one.

    3. There is no such thing as an internal or external art. If you have a good external foundation, internal training will give you a better one. If you have good internal strength, your external foundation will be better.

    4. I'm glad you think you are ready to have your own school and teach. What does your teacher think?

    5. I know I already said this but it's worth repeating. "Even a pot of water can take 10 years to boil if you keep taking it off the fire."
    Last edited by count; 10-24-2003 at 08:04 PM.
    Count

    Live it or live with it.

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  6. #6
    Simply put, I agree with you all.
    Shut up and train.

    LUEsers unite

    402

  7. #7
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    Right student Right Time- Right Teacher.

    You can run from system to system and never
    find what feels right or makes sense enough for
    you to enjoy and learn.

    When it does happen? Marry it.

  8. #8

    Question

    Lineage says more about the quality of your techniques rather than your ability to do them. Said ability only comes from training.

    3) Chan Si Jin or "Silk Reeling Energy." The human musculature is composed of a double helical spirals. In order to keep the muscles relaxed the body must move in spiral motion.
    Skeletal muscle is composed of striations that run the length of the muscle.
    DNA is a double helix.
    In order for your muscles to relax, you must let them relax, no matter the ranges of motion.

  9. #9
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    1. Lineage means nothing to anyone outside of self respect for your own background. It is not an indication of a teacher or students ability. Either you will train hard or you will not be good.

    ****True. But having a good lineage means having a good foundation to start from.

    2. If you have a good capacity to remember how you learned, than you will be able to teach. Being a good fighter does not make you a good teacher but it will make a good teacher a better one.

    ****If someone doesn't posess fighting ability then how can they call themself a teacher of martial arts? I'm just saying that teachers of martial arts start from different natural athelitic abilities and body types.

    3. There is no such thing as an internal or external art. If you have a good external foundation, internal training will give you a better one. If you have good internal strength, your external foundation will be better.

    ****I disagree with you here. I think there is a pretty clear division between the BIG 3 and many so called "Shaolin" arts. I would say, however, that there is no such thing as a "purely" internal or external martial arts. The degree of internalness will vary as I stated above.

    4. I'm glad you think you are ready to have your own school and teach. What does your teacher think?

    ****Haha...well....I'm not going to qualify myself to you.... and I don't really know because I haven't asked him....yet.

    5. I know I already said this but it's worth repeating. "Even a pot of water can take 10 years to boil if you keep taking it off the fire."

    ***Hmmm....food for thought.

    Cheers

  10. #10
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    [
    Skeletal muscle is composed of striations that run the length of the muscle.
    DNA is a double helix.
    In order for your muscles to relax, you must let them relax, no matter the ranges of motion. [/B]
    Mmmmm....not quite. Your muscles are composed of muscle fibers. The muscle groups criss cross each other in a double helical fashion. In order to keep the muscle fibers elongated (ie not contracted) you must move in a spiral fasion.

  11. #11
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    If you come from a well respected lineage then chances are high that you have good ability.
    Correction, chances are high that u CAN have good ability. It all brakes down to the individual. I think u agree with me on this.
    No Pain....No Gain

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