If you don't compete....

[Water Dragon]

Personally, I'm hoping to score a big phat trophy for the living room.

[Shaolin-Do]

Of course trophies are great. Nothin like a big shiny piece of metal on the mantle that says "I can kick your weak ass." to all those who visit.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Personally, I'm hoping to score a big phat trophy for the living room.

Actually, I really do look forward to them... but only for my parents' sake. My parents display every trophy they have and mine also. The six foot 1st place sparring trophy sits in the living room, and all the judo medals, grappling trophies, forms, etc. are displayed with my (and my parents') bowling trophies

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
Competing for medals or honors is most certainly not the definition of a good martial practitioner. All the guys claiminig their arts are more then anyone elses because they compete and take medals are as bad as any other artist who claims his art is too deadly to practice in the ring.

The only key is at some point you must test your skill, in the ring, on the mat, in the kwoon/dojo, it doesn't matter to me, just test it and become confident in it.

Who mentioned medals? If you were responding to me, I said

"open sparring nights are great. I still give competition the edge though, because there's that drive to win, which will make both fighters try that much harder."

it's not because of the medal though, it's because we are in a contest of skill, and I am going to prove that you are not better than me. The medal is merely a by product of that.

[Water Dragon]

lol @ this turning into a trophy thread

[David Jamieson]

bah!

Competition is human nature, it is hard coded in our brains to compete and succeed.

In regards to martial arts, it is at points in your training necessary to test what you have in order to learn the truth about yourself. You will NEVER know if you do not test.

Competition venues are one way to test your training and whether the skills you have are valid and applicable martially.

Also, exchanges with fellows are a great way to do this as well.
One does not need to kill their opponent to know they have defeated them. Unless of course you're a samurai, which I sincerely doubt, lol.

In regards to insular competition, as in only facing those in your same school, this actually helps you to understand the art you're being taught. But at more advanced levels, this becomes redundant, the best student acquires and maintains dominance over all others through this process and in effect stops learning from the experience and it becomes mere drudgery and a waste of time.

Time to move out and try the art against completely different elements at this point. There you will find new challenges and will eb able to further refine your art.

It's a martial art afterall isn't it? Not a chess game, not a friendly tag match. Training is not the same as the bitter reality of true combat against an unknown strength. But it certainly does help to refine the skills asssociated with the art so that the art can be used in combat.

Adjustments nee dto be made for some venues, and other venues are what the training revolves around, IE: the rule set.

imo, the best competitive venue for martial arts in the 20th century is vale tudo. especially the early iterations of it. That was as close as you could get to real combat without guns, knives and bludgeoning weapons being pulled on you.

ufc, nhb et al all try to measureup to the early vale tudo model that blew people away when it was first introduced.

the lei Tai matches would have had some similarity to this. Man, that's some dirty business.

so, do we need to compete : yes, you need to compete at some point in your training to help you truly understand the fighting applications of what you are learning

do we need to continally compete: no, in fact it is unlikely that you will gain anything from it other than a beating when you are too old and lose strength and power and speed. This doesn't mean you can't pass along what you know to someone else. Let the next generation in to keep the traditions going I guess, or just for the sake of giving the knowledge to others for no reason other than that.

cheers

[red5angel]

7* - Why would you approach your fight night any differently from a competition? Why if you are fighting against someone you aren't giving it your all? Don't get me wrong I can understand at first what you mean but I don't give competition the edge because it has its own set of restrictions and attitudes. For some it can hurt more then help, just look at what karate and TKD have become because of tournemant fighting. This doesn't invalidate competitions as a place to learn and a place to test yourself, it just means that like all training situations, competition isn't the end all to be all.

If you're in it to win then how is it not about the medals and the trophies? Does competition somehow validate your skill in some way that training or fight nights cannot?

[fa_jing]

To me, the *benefit* of competition takes place in three stages: 50% pre-comp training, 20% the fight(s) themselves, and 30% post comp rehash.

When you are training for a comp, you KNOW you're going to fight someone and you know that he or she is training just as hard as you are, if not harder. That causes you to drive yourself much harder in practice than you otherwise would. Now if your life was in danger from non-firearms on a regular basis, you would also train this hard. But most of us don't fall into that catagory.

Obviously you gain "experience points" during your matches and come up with stuff on the fly -

Then you have the post-comp analysis, hopefully you have it on tape, and can verify strengths and weaknesses.

The difference between a comp and friendly inter-school competition, is that I'll still try out stuff on people when it's friendly. But when it comes down to a comp (point-sparring excluded), I'll automatically use ONLY my most reliable techiniques

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
lol @ this turning into a trophy thread

We're tired of hiding the fact that this is what motivates our training. Thank you, WD for allowing us to expose this.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by red5angel
7* - Why would you approach your fight night any differently from a competition?

I don't.

For some it can hurt more then help, just look at what karate and TKD have become because of tournemant fighting. This doesn't invalidate competitions as a place to learn and a place to test yourself, it just means that like all training situations, competition isn't the end all to be all.

competition didn't hurt those styles, the promoters did. karate wasn't always point like that...there used to be pretty hard contact. different times, liability, blah, blah blah changed that, not the competition itself.

If you're in it to win then how is it not about the medals and the trophies? Does competition somehow validate your skill in some way that training or fight nights cannot?

sure it does. There's pressure there - audience, etc. it's not about the medals so much as it about beating you. In some cases, there is money at stake, which drives you more. In those instances, then yes it can be about that. Does it validate your skill in a different way? nah. but, IME, there's more pressure in a competition than a fight night, which is why I weight it more.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fa_jing
The difference between a comp and friendly inter-school competition, is that I'll still try out stuff on people when it's friendly. But when it comes down to a comp (point-sparring excluded), I'll automatically use ONLY my most reliable techiniques

key point right there. open nights have a more friendly overtone than a competition.

[Meat Shake]

Dont want to lose face in front of the crowd in a competition as well... Sucks to take a beating in front of 150+ people.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Maybe it's because I started MA in Judo, but I always beleived in the value of some form of sportive activity. It serves as a drill for identifying flaws in your training goals - as long you don't start playing the 'game' invented by the rules.

While I have won more than I have lost, I never collected my trophies or medals - to me the real reward was the insights into training. Fortunately, there are a few records around, so my students know I am not full of BS...

Shuai Chiao has always had a sportive aspect to it. This is perhaps why it is widely respected, because the use of that sportive aspect allows you to develop realistic expectations and skill in real free-fighting, Something you cannot get from more controlled training.

Personally, I am of the opinion that many schools that develop 'amazing' skills do it under the controlled circumstances of the classroom that allow for the perfect set-up to be given to the 'master.' I think this is true of most, but not all Aikido and Taiji schools to cite two good examples. I always go back to that Jim Carrey Karate teacher skit from 'in living color' - stuff cracks me up because it is SO true.

Then in the TMA, you have situations where the teacher isolates himself from challenge. This invites stagnation of skill. While I do not expect every teacher to be a superman - you don't see many boxing coaches climbing in the ring wiith thier protege's - your teacher should have obvious skill and a willingness to play with it. My Shuai Chiao teacher would never fight us - but we never expected him too. A.) He was much older and b.) he is a very, very busy physician - he has no where the training time we have. But his skill was evident in his lessons and in the product he produced - his students are all good fighters - and they compete.

In the MMA - you do have a lot of smack being talked. While there IS some truth to it, it does negatively impact the less well adjusted of the students. I've had to hurt pretty badly some poor whelps who beleived the smack and thought they would have some fun with a TMA guy. It is irresponsible behavior - but with the poor training methodology of most CMA, the tendancy for secrecy,and the unwillingness to take advantage on environments to test those skills against resisting opponents - what do you expect.

If you call yourself 'sifu' - and you have never tested your skill outside of your club - do you really have the 'kung fu' in MA to call yourself that?

If you isolate yourself along ethnic or cultural lines do you not limit your experience? I'll never be a BJJ guy - heck I've got knives - but it is good to know how to fight them. Ground grappling has evolved - remember what Sunb Tzu said "Know your Enemy, and Know Yourself" This means KNOW them, not fantasize about what you'll do to them.

In my fighting prime I sought out the 'top' perceived schools of the day and played against them, with thier rules if need be. If you have Kung Fu, you should not be concerned about playing with a MMA guy. Period. Let me tell you, they are not all Frank Shamrock...

This is a wake up call for all who call themselves 'teacher' or 'coach' or sifu or master. The world today has become like the days of old. Fighters are willing to fight, test thier skills, and learn from each other. If that life was good enough for Chang Tung-Sheng, Wang Xangzhai, and Li Ciun Yi - it is good enough for us.

So go out and live the martial fantasy, instead of just fantasizing about it.

[Water Dragon]

best post ever

[Chris_McKinley]

Monkey Slap,

That was one of the most intellectually honest posts I've ever seen on KFM. It doesn't reactively take sides with either camp. I wish I had more guys like you around to train with.