robert w smith vs chen man ching fight

[Syd]

Erle lying? Well he has the scars to prove it. He also trains law enforcement not just in Australia but in European countries when he travels, and discusses his very real battle with knife attack basing many of his training techniques on mistakes made under attack. If you conveniently choose to claim he's lying well more power to your agenda.

It's always interesting to hear from an expert...

From Chin Na in Groundfighting by author Al Arsenault...

"...By cross training they often managed to obscure the boundaries between pure styles for the sake of survival in the octagon (UFC). The winners were often groundfighters who learned to cross train in striking arts. Losers went back to learn some groundfighting. So, is groundfighting the ultimate fighting form? Not so, if you change the rules to two or three opponents on one, for example. How would a person who knew only about groundfighting do in a swarming? In this domain the strikers would do better than the grappler. A police officer is better to use Chin Na to seize and control his opponent in a hostile invironment (potential for other assailents) as opposed to going to ground to gain control."

Al Arsenault has over 24 years as Vancouver Police Officer and is a 5th Degree Black Belt in Sanshou Dao and a Black Belt in Judo.

In my own school of Taijiquan the rule of thumb is never go to ground and the idea behind most if not all movements in Taijiquan assumes more than one attacker. As a result of this I have started exploring and integrating the Chin Na and groundfighting techniques from other arts. Throwing and Shuaijiao that is inherent in Taijiquan is something I am already training in order to prepare for any possible groundfighting circumstances.

I think remaining true to Taiji principles and cross training and integrating groundfighting is optimal, infact cross training for stand up encounters and ground fighting seems to be the best option all round. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that Groundfighting and grappling is the be all and end all. And don't think that ring fighting is a true representation of what real fighting (outside in the dirty parking lot or freeway underpass) is all about.... it is a sport, end of story.

[PHILBERT]

Hey guys, stop bashing one another.

[Unmatchable]

If you're fighting 2 or 3 opponents your gonna lose no matter what. If they are fighting full force and aren't some pencil neck geeks. It's very hard to ko somebody so they will keep fighting you until it goes to the ground.

I never said Erle is lying I said he could be, anyon could have scars for other reasons and how do you know he himself didn't have a knife or a weapon at the time?

[PHILBERT]

Unmatchable, thats a load of crap. You can fight 2 or 3 opponents and win. There is a popular video on the net of a pro skate boarder who beat up 4 guys at once because all 4 of them were too big of sissies to fight back despite they outnumbered him. I've seen other fight videos online of 1 vs 3 and the 1 wins.

[jun_erh]

mike vallely and he is a badass

[Unmatchable]

I was talking about 2 or 3 guys that really want to fight you without holding back. Mike Vasely was fighting a few pencil neck kids who didn't really fight back or want to fight.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

In the street it's called Fighting.. not Taiji, not Kung Fu, not Muay Thai, not NHB.. and, what wins is what works.. If you intend to take it to the street you would be well advised to cross-train.. keep your favorite style, but have a working knowledge of as much as you can.. the problem is emotional attachments to one's favorite style, disregarding the common-sense needed to survive in an actual street confrontation..

Taiji is my foundation, my first response.. but, i will use whatever i can to preserve my health and life.. Taiji is a great martial art and it is so much more, i will never discard my passion for Taiji, but i will use ALL of my training when necessary...

The last place you want to be is on the ground with multiple attackers...

Be well...

[PHILBERT]

Unmatchable, still does not matter. If you know how to fight, and they don't, you can defeat them even if they want to fight you. Sure it will be much more difficult, but it is not impossible.

[Unmatchable]

taichibob is correct. However to present the other side of the coin, you often have traditional practitioners wanting you to believe that H2H combat was a primary means of deciding battles, when in fact it generally took a seat behind horsemanship, archery, etc. It was tertiary at best. Some would go as far to make you think the Mongols wrestled their way through Asia.

btw, If they're even decent with the blade, you won't have to worry about running, because you'll never see it coming.

[Pork Chop]

Interesting thread; given me something to read on a slow day at work.

I'm not too much of a taiji guy, just learned the wushu competition forms and competed when I was in my late teens. Was learning traditional hsing yi at the same time from the same guy, so go figure. Been doing mostly external stuff and san shou since then.

Just thought I'd chime in where I saw some stuff.

-----

In san shou, some techniques are straight taiji techniques (not just principles), so I don't agree with Unmatchable's point that you're getting up there saying you're doing taiji, but bust out with some boxing.

If you're curious; the techniques I saw that were straight taiji included:

High roundhouse kick catch- (the one where the close arm covers while the far arm scoops under) is as close to "wave hands through clouds" as I could ever ask for.

Low roundhouse kick catch- (the one where the close arm traps the leg to the thigh that was just kicked, while the other arm punches to the face & attempts to break the other guy's balance) is a "brush knee push" for a sport that doesn't allow open palms.

There's at least one straight punch in the forms I learned.

Fireman's carry is just a variation on "snake creeps through grass".

Someone was saying "needle to sea bottom" translates well to a san shou single leg (where you try not to let the knee touch the ground); but not sure about that one.

I could also see ward off translating to a kick catch with a sweep or leg trap.

------

The question basically becomes "what should it look like?". I have always believed applications should be utilitarian, sometimes differing from the forms- which sometimes contain flowery exaggerations to make the movement easier to understand.

I think too many movies lead people to expect that kung fu people fight out of poses, when the majority of kung fu guys in the day probably fought out of something we'd recognize as a guard. Big movements in forms reduced to small movements in the clinch.

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I REALLY don't understand the gun/reality fighting angle. Trying to figure out whether your hand to hand works against other hand to hand is a valid question and to me is not negated by the inclusion of non-hand-to-hand elements into the mix.

If anything the whole "chaos of the reality situation" seems to be an argument for fighting INSIDE a ring, not OUTSIDE it.

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MMA matches have rulesets that allow a much higher percentage of kung fu techniques than boxing, kickboxing, san shou, or even kuoshu; so the question there is not really "why aren't kung fu people dominating?" but really "why aren't kung fu people even trying?".

Anybody who steps up is usually shot down as "not kung fu" (usually for good reason) by people who don't seem to want to take the time from making invincibility claims for some 300 year old master in order to prepare someone to compete. Makes you wonder if something else is going on (hence my current dilemma of wanting to leave my kung fu school).

Win or lose, fighters HAVE earned respect; some gaining notoriety for a valiant effort, so the fear of not wanting to lose any business from a loss isn't making much sense either.

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Think both sides in this argument have some valid points and some views that i have serious issues with.

I haven't heard of a single kung fu master from the old days (not today's "i publish a book therefor i'm a famous, uberskilled master) that was highly regarded without ever having fought. I'm not even talking about life-or-death, bandits-raiding-the-village type of situation; but olden day challenge matches with *gasp* an accepted & agreed upon set of rules.

The founder of my last/current style fought 20 some-odd people in a (full contact) tournament style competition & came out the winner. The style before that, all the masters in the lineage had famous stories of challenge matches. I don't think I should sit back on their laurels; but I should try to emulate their prowess myself.

With the safety measures available these days, and the sporting atmosphere free of revenge and litigation (for the most part); it doesn't make sense why someone in kung fu would only fight people in their own school, waiting around for that once-in-a-lifetime life-or-death situation, and occasionally strapping on the foam booties to go play pu$$y tag at the local ego-fest/ tournament. Instead kung fu people should be like the Thais, fighting all the time, 70 or 80 fights, getting good at (h2h) fighting, cuz now it's safe to do so.

After seeing guys like those Team Paul Mitchell people & the XMA folks, I want as little to do with public exhibition of forms as possible. I can see forms as a good learning tool; but they should be a personal thing and not a way to rate skill. If you're going to compare martial ability, do it in a ring, not with super light twangy broadswords, cartwheels, and screaming for the sheer heck of it. Otherwise, it just becomes "martial influenced performance art".

And there's NO reason kung fu people shouldn't branch out and play with guys from Dog Brothers, SCA, FMAists, fencers, and other weapons people.

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Anybody referencing Genki Sudo's K1 technique as proof of anything needs to be shot. The dude's as unorthodox as they come, which is why we love him. The guy breakdances DURING the fight for chrissakes.

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Anyway, I'll get off the soap box now. Not trying to rant or lecture, just want to share my views.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Unmatchable

btw, If they're even decent with the blade, you won't have to worry about running, because you'll never see it coming. [/B]

Your words here are exactly the point I was stressing, only I put it in a modern context.


So why practice a MMA? Why practice an IMA?

Why for any multiple reasons why. However, it shouldn't be because one belives one art is better than another.


(If or When) you come to think it through, sooner or later, your goings to draw the conclusion of "why argue, debate or critic another H2H art? "

We are only talking about relative weakness and advantages within a format of kinesthetic movements called a martial art.

In the end its all H2H

These weakness and advantages change dramatically for “All” once a physical weapon enters the equation, regardless of what style of H2H one practice.

[Shooter]

Ankle-pick=Pick-up-needle

Low kick-catch and punch=Pick-up-needle

Fireman's carry=Emptying-rice-bag

Crucifix=Carry-an-ox-head

Double-leg=Polishing-mirror

Low roundhouse shin-check=Golden=rooster

Knee-strike in clinch=Golden-rooster

Knee-to-elbow strike combo=Golden-rooster

Harai-goshi=Rhino-looks-at-the-moon

Uchi-mata=Swallow-soars-to-the-sea

Pushing off in the clinch(for instance)=Ward-off

Shuck or throw-by=Roll-back&Pull-down

Elbow or knee strike=Elbow-strike

Body-check, shoulder-check, hip-check, head-butt=Shoulder-stroke

Pushing off for duck-under(for instance)=Press

Flying-knee=Skipping

Straight-blast=Lightning-attack

Hitting methods too numerous to list (some are listed above).


Just to name a few of TCC's Applications.

There are no techniques in TCC - just good tactical movement.

BTW, in case anyone cares, this guy just cuts and pastes from other peoples' posts on bullshido and sews it into his own posts here. I thought he was 3 or 4 different people! LOL How weak is that? Unless he's really kungfools, et al.

[Pork Chop]

Many many thanks Shooter; going to print that out for future use and research! I mean, the modern competition forms may not be hot stuff compared to real traditional stuff, but understanding how more of the moves can be used & envisioned might clean up my play a bit.

My education in hsing yi and taiji is pretty low theory/explanation wise; but of the forms I've learned & practised a million times, they feel like they have the most carry-over to what I'm doin. So eventho I'm planning on walking away from my other kung fu school, I got a feeling I'm always going to play with those forms from those other 2 styles.

So who's the cut n paster? Syd or Unmatchable?

Right now I'm reading through "European"'s post off of Shen Wu forum. The j0ckriding is amazing, and even crosses stylistic boundaries.

[Unmatchable]

with the mma crowd, you pretty much need a champion--someone who wins NHB events. Of course, said champion must also consistently exhibit techniques that are obviously derived from his or her style style and not typically seen elsewhere. Gracies did a great job of doing this. I don't think there has been a greco wrestling poster boy or a muay thai champion...it is just widely recognized that these martial arts are valuable tools.
I mean, all MMA fighters use those styles, but I don't think there was just one person that showed and started doing MT or wrestling and everyone jumped on it.

I think BJJ was the only one. I believe that particular art (Muay Thai) stepped in to fill the obvious gap in BJJ's game. As it stands now, however, the mold is set for MMAists. I'm not trying to say that these are the only two styles practiced, but they are among only a handful of those relied upon in the mainstream. For something to come along and usurp BJJ or MT's status, it would have to score some pretty spectacular victories.

Here is a thread you guys should read:
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/DisplayMessage...P=10&FID=1&c=1

I trained with a Shorin Ryu guy in Grinnell, IA for a couple years. He was super-hardcore, and the folks he trained with trained very realistically. They would spar full-contact, and they trained for fast KO's.
Anyways, he didn't look like a typical "karate" guy at all. He looked more like a modified kickboxer. He would angle at you until he found an opening and blast you with punches and kicks right down your centerline until you weren't left standing.

The moral to this story is, if you take any TMA and train it in a realistic way, what you are gonna end up with is gonna look a lot like MMA (since this guys neglected his groundwork, he looked more like a kickboxer.)

Take a look at San Da (san shou). A lot of Chinese TMA stylists do it, and it looks pretty much like Muay Thai with lots of good throws. These guys aren't training MT and wrestling. They haven't scrapped their traditional arts. They are just training more realistically in their arts. Everything ends up looking similar, because after all, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. There are only so many ways you can manipulate the human body.

I bring this up because everyone is saying that Franklin sucks now that he has gotten beat by a karate dude. I think that Franklin IS as good as his hype, and I think that he is in the same league (or just a step behind) Liddel, Ortiz, Belfort, and Couture. I just think that it is quite possible for this guy Lyoto to be that good.

TMAs + realistic training + live sparring = typical MMA fighter.

[Shooter]

unmentionable wrote:

with the mma crowd, you pretty much need a champion--someone who wins NHB events. Of course, said champion must also consistently exhibit techniques that are obviously derived from his or her style style and not typically seen elsewhere. Gracies did a great job of doing this. I don't think there has been a greco wrestling poster boy or a muay thai champion...it is just widely recognized that these martial arts are valuable tools.
I mean, all MMA fighters use those styles, but I don't think there was just one person that showed and started doing MT or wrestling and everyone jumped on it

greese1 posted: 01-02-2004 04:50 AM on bullshido:

Not nessicarily. I don't think there has been a greco wrestling poster boy or a muay thai champion...it is just widely recognized that these martial arts are valuable tools.
I mean, all MMA fighters use those styles, but I don't think there was just one person that showed and started doing MT or wrestling and everyone jumped on it.
I think BJJ was the only one

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...5&pagenumber=3


that's just sad...