Tan Tui- Is it a separate school of its own?

[rik]

Looking at Shifu Han's 10 section Tan tui confirms in my mind that the 10 section and 12 section version are connected. In some sections (ie. 1, 3, 4) the similarities are more apparent than others. Section 8 and 9 however are quite different. Despite these difference the similarities in the underlining patterns can be seen. This in my mind confirms the traditional history of Shaolin Tan tui. We went thought through this in another early discussion at some length. Basically tradition according to the older generation says that Shaolin monks adopted tan tui making some changes to it and added two sections. From what I understand Shanghai Jingwu propagated the same history of it as we do.


Our Tan Tui comes from different linage than the one that came from Chao Lien-ho and the Shanghai Jingwu. Our lineage moved from the Luoyang area in Henan province to Beijing during the mid 1800's then to Shanghai during the 1910's.
At lest in looking at Chan Kin Man's book "Northern Shaolin Twelve Tantui Boxing Series" published by the Hong Kong Chan Hong Heung Kung Fu Association in 1984, I would say that our tan tui is very simular although not identical to the Jingwu version.

However many of the applications are different, at lest as shown in the above mentioned book.
e.g. Section 11, which shows a catch-trap-throw, we do this also but quite differently. Our application for section 4 is different.

r.

[mickey]

Greeitings All,

I thought Louyang (Loyang) was in Shantung Province.

mickey

[Robert Young]

COUNT,


> But than, if you already know Southern California, than I think
> you probably already know my teacher too.
I know my teacher has some younger brothers immigrated to southern California. But, I don't know who your teacher is. Would you be kind to tell me your background?

> When you circle your arms and cross them in front as in lines 4,
> 7 and 8, it is an armlock and the reason for sitting so low in
> twisted stance, is to put the pressure on and take your
> opponent to the ground. Line 4 has a diagonal cut and a front
> sweep combination and line 8 has a diagonal cut. It's there and
> I would have to show you on your own body so if you stop by
> in Southern California, please stop by. If you wanted to meet
> people with some of your own background, you probably would
> have found us anyway. And I would give anything to learn the
> 2 man Qinna form.
I think I know how you interprete the routines on #4 and #8. I have seen people done that. But, That is not what it was interpreted from GM Han. Our interpretation on those are simply grab and hit with foot step back. It is like applying grab and hit under retreat. I bet that was your teacher's interpretation. It's actually normal. People may endup interprete moves their own way. My Long Fist younger brothers have similar interpretation also. They were taught and trained by me in the past. But after I was away from Taiwan for almost ten years, they ended up interpreted that way. Some even interpreted into something else way out of line. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong. All I'm saying is that it was not original meaning.

GM Han only taught his first two groups of senior students personally. Most of my younger Long Fist uncles were taught and trained by those senior students. GM Han might have taught a little bit here and there to those younger students, but not much.
As you can see, it is very easy to have moves changed or meaning interpreted differently in that kind of teaching environment.

I go to southern California from time to time to visite relatives. I would be very happy to meet people related to me. Let me know how to contact you.

I'm happy to teach two man QinNa form, but it takes two person with certain background. I would be happy to show you some basics if we have the chance to meet someday. Not I don't want to teach the form directly. The fact is that, in all my Long Fist uncles, only two or three of them can perform the form.


MICKEY,

> Was the ten line version developed at the Nan King Central MA
> Institute?
Yes and No. The first eight routines are the original one. Nan King Central MA Institute added the 9 and 10 routines for double kicks.

[count]

Robert,
I study Baguazhang with Jason Tsou. He was with the same generation as Adam Hsu under Liu Yun Qaio. So I guess you would say our longfist comes from Adam Hsu who got it from Grandmaster Han. When I started with Sifu Tsou, in the early 80's, it was a requirement for everyone to learn basic longfist before Sifu picked a style for you. I consider that fortunate since I have seen others come into the school more recently, and not be forced to learn basics first. The serious students always go back and beg for the basic training after seeing how valuable it is. Considering Sifu Tsou's background with Shuai Chiao, it would not surprise me if that was his interpretation of the applications. Still, I use them with the same movements and entries etc. as the form and they are quite effective.

As I said, everyone at our school eventually gets some exposure to Longfist. I know at least one other bagua brother who I could work on the Qinna form with, who has also been through our longfist training. I would be thrilled to meet you and introduce you to my Sifu, if you haven't already met him before. You can always reach me here or at emptyflower website, or through our school website that is linked in my signature.

Jeff "count" Kabaker

[Robert Young]

COUNT,

> I study Baguazhang with Jason Tsou. He was with the same
> generation as Adam Hsu under Liu Yun Qaio. So I guess you
> would say our longfist comes from Adam Hsu who got it from
> Grandmaster Han.
> Considering Sifu Tsou's background with Shuai Chiao, it would
> not surprise me if that was his interpretation of the applications.
That explains it. Adam Hsu seldom learned his Long Fist directly from GM Han. He was taught and trained mostly by his senior brothers. And he did not stayed in Long Fist very long either. Long means several decades. I have been with my teacher for 30 years. Every time I went back to see my teacher, I learn something new about our Long Fist, even today.

Cheer,

[count]

I understand what you are saying and I already knew a little about you from reading your posts at the EmptyFlower forum. I have only trained maybe a handful of times with Adam and my main interest is bagua. But I am grateful for the training I got in Longfist from my teacher, Sifu Tsou. We did Tan Tui this morning for a full hour, which after the holidays and everything, it was brutal.

Hope to meet you someday,

[taichi4eva]

"Prior to his enrolment in Yip's classes, [Bruce] Lee had had no exposure to a serious fighting art. He had been taught the rolling, punching, swinging, and kicking movements of tam toi, a northern system of kung fu exercises which are a mandatory part of the physical education curriculum of every Hong Kong youth"

So everyone in Hong Kong's a kung fu master then? I can just imagine a bunch of people doing tan tui and practicing nunchakus in a park somewhere....I'm just joking. Was tan tui really a part of the physical education curriculum along with other sports like baseball, tennis, etc.? Was it considered to be part of some P.E. unit entitled "KungFu101"? Just how famous is tan tui in Hong Kong? And, if we are arguing here, could we say that Bruce Lee had mastered Tan Tui before anything else, including his famous Wing Chun?

[count]

Originally posted by sc_guy
]Count:

Strange enough the invatation letter that I have received does not have the date in it. Do you know the date and competation list? It will be nice that Tsou Ja Sean and I could form a US team together.

Our trip is planned for the last 2 weeks in August. We already have at least 10 people commited to going and plan a pretty extensive itinerary besides Qingdao and the tournament. I don't know the exact tournament date and Sifu Tsou is away on a trip until next weekend. I'll have him get in touch with you as soon as he gets back.

[mickey]

Hi taicih4eva,

I don't ever remember Bruce Lee being called a master of Tan Tui. I do remember seeing a video that featured Dan Inosanto. Dan stated that Bruce taught it as part of his curriculum when he was in the US. I guess it was during the "early phase" of his teaching.

I do remember hearing the term "Tan Tui Hall" in reference to a training place in Hong Kong. I don't know much beyond that; but, it sounded like day care for children.

mickey

[mickey]

Hi Northern Shaolin,

I was reviewing the responses made by Robert Young about Huo Yuan Chia. If Huo used Shuai Chiao, that is not at all conflicting with your tradition that he used Tan Tui techniques from lines 1 and 2. Lines 1 and 2 both have throwing techniques. So now it can be said that Huo fought using throwing techniques from lines 1 and 2 of Tan Tui.

Of course, we are talking about the 12 line version.

mickey

[stimulant]

Tan Tui was a seperate style....but I dont think it is practised as a seperate style anymore

[taichi4eva]

"I do remember hearing the term "Tan Tui Hall" in reference to a training place in Hong Kong. I don't know much beyond that; but, it sounded like day care for children."

LOL....day care...really...a lot of McDojo's are like that.

[mickey]

On the other hand,

I remember Shum Leung (Ying Jow Pai) speaking in an interview about a Tam Tui Wong. This person has practiced Tam Tui for years and can fight with it. This was written in the now defunct Journal of Asian Martial Arts.

mickey

[rik]

Mickey,
Re: Luoyang. This city is an ancient Imperial capital located in the northwestern part of Henan.

In old school CMA, locking, throwing, and the so call 'chin-na' etc. were not separate arts but were integrated with striking etc. Generally all systems had them to various degrees.
As far as accounts of what technques Huo Yuanjia used or didn’t use in his fights I would take most of it with a grain salt. Generally even first person accounts of these kind of events tend to be wildly different. This is the case even when you have expert observers.
Huo was a famous martial artist but became legendary almost immediatly after his death in 1910 and there were many stories about him. My teacher, who started training in Shanghai in the mid ‘20s remembers that it was said although Huo Yuanjia did not know many sets he was regarded a master and was very skilled in the basics and Tan Tui. How true this was - who knows. What is most certain, if Huo was anything of the fighter he is claimed to be, his basics were excellent.

r.

[mickey]

Hello rik,

Thank you for the info.

I agree with you with regard to old school Chinese martial arts. The specializations we see now may have been to help preserve certain aspects of Chinese martial arts.

With regard to Huo Yuan Chia, what techniques he used and what he knew, you might enjoy the irony of the following. When I was first learning Tan Tui, I asked how Tan Tui men fought. I was told "Lost Track"; i.e. like Lost Track practitioners.

mickey