Front kick (revisited) and Christopher Columbus

[Ray Pina]

Again, just putting out a different point of view on HISTORY. Did some quick google searches, found this on weapons collections and Tang influence on MA:

http://tse.dyndns.org/~sktse/dzhoutl.htm

http://www.san.beck.org/AB4-SEAsiaKoreaJapan.html

http://tse.dyndns.org/~sktse/yuan.htm

http://tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/TKDH...Beginnings.htm

Seems like the circular blocking familiar in karate and TKD was heavily influenced by this era.

BUT, why the personal attacks? Saying my teacher is a "self appointed engineer." You can't self appoint yourself to the building of jet airplanes. Sorry.

I respect your degree and that you are a professor. I really do. I considered getting a PHD in English/Lit for a while. I also have friends that are NYU grads. What year were you there?

I am not a historian! I am a martial artist. I put some info out to maybe raise an eyebrow or two. As for my style, no need to write songs about it. For those in NY I'm ALWAYS willing to play. I also travel quite a bit for work. I'll be in Vegas next week.

This is not a challenge. Just saying as martial artists disagreements over history we can go back and forth forever. Disagreements over technique: hell, we can solve that in the park this weekend easily. There's no arguing with getting kicked right in the head, or getting your leg captured and dumped.

I bow out of this discussion. As soon as they get personal, I don't want to lose my head. I long thought it was understood that most styles (admittedly) were influenced by this time period. I just don't know if they know that's a good thing.

[Water Dragon]

Crumble has just side stepped the correct and threw a roundhouse into the small of it's back.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
BUT, why the personal attacks? Saying my teacher is a "self appointed engineer." You can't self appoint yourself to the building of jet airplanes. Sorry.

Nothing "personal", just direct, the person CLAIMS to have three Phd's, I'd like to see some evidence because, frankly, I've seen Chinese LIE through their teeth about their credentials in their homeland. I know guys who are barely literate who claim to have been professors. I know, they assume we are all idiots, but some of us are not

I did say "self appointed" I self "self professed" look it up if you don't know what that means.

The short of it, buidling planes doesn't make you a history professor, so if he was an ENGINEER in China doesn't mean squat when it comes to the stories he tells and tries to pass off as history

Disagreements over history do not "go back and forth forever".

There are verifiable and accepted facts, then there is "martial arts history" which is often less than folk lore and mythology

[Ray Pina]

We can read two different books on the same subject -- discovery of North America, the Japanese occupation of China -- and they can tell two different stories .... how can either one be indesputable fact?

History is often changed. The ancient Egyptians, there's differences in 10s of thousands of years over the dates there. So who is right? I'm surprised to hear you say such a thing as "fact". It's an undending story still unfolding. (Anyway, what years did you teach at NYU? Maybe some of my friends actually studied under you.)

As for my teacher, you don't know ANYTHING about him. An educated man making such gross pre-judgments of an entire race ... and placing them onto a single man he's never met?

As for me: judge my history and call me a kook. But if you're going to call me "naive" and a 13-year-old and these other negative comments, at least meet up with me and see my technique. I'm not saying what I study is the best. What I'm saying is that I've filled the holes in the weaknesses I discovered studying some of these other styles. Now I continue to search for any holes that aren't apparent.

I want to hear stuff like: Hsing-I is open to "_____" or Ba GUa is fearful of the "_______". Make me think about it. That's all I'm doing. I'm saying I'm not fearful of the roundhouse kick. If that is a major weapon of someone here, maybe they should look into why!

That is the point: Not that I wrote 1452 instead of 1492 or whatever. Not that Joe Blow brought this to this style in 400AD. Who cares? It's all antique to me anyway. Here and now is what matters. Roundhouse kick is very powerful!


My master puts it like this: rockets, machine guns, hand guns, bayonettes..... they all have their place. But if you use the bayonette first, when they other guy is using rockets .... your dead.

I'm talking to guys that can kick very good. Can punch very good. We all have the what. I like talking about the HOW and WHEN.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
We can read two different books on the same subject -- discovery of North America, the Japanese occupation of China -- and they can tell two different stories .... how can either one be indesputable fact?

YAWN, I am really getting tired of this silliness

If there is not a single reputable book on Chinese history that mentions the mass seizure of weapons, who are we to believe? The accepted history books, backed by footnotes, citations and documents

or some "martial arts history" based upon what someone's teacher told them.

Answer SHOULD be pretty obvious.

Show me a reputable source for your two assertions, ie that weapons were seized in a mass movement during the TANG dynasty (big HINT, if you can't even spell a dynasty's name correctly, how good can your history be?) OR of these "national competitions" which no one has ever heard of?

Originally posted by EvolutionFist


As for my teacher, you don't know ANYTHING about him.

I may not know anything about his martial arts, but I know his so called "history" is a fantasy

Originally posted by EvolutionFist

But if you're going to call me "naive" and a 13-year-old and these other negative comments, at least meet up with me and see my technique.

Again, you may be the world's greatest bad ass fighter, it doesn't make anything that you have said here true.

You made a comment on ALL Chinese martial arts based upon extremely limited experience, that makes you naive

A lot of your comments indeed mimic a child, or a 13 year old. You apparently can't grasp the difference between verifiable, acceptable historical reference and boooolll ssshhhheeeeeettt put up on the internet

Let's just review;

1. you said that there are ONLY front kicks in Chinese martial arts. You gave as an example HUNG GA.

I pointed out a side kick and a cross kick/Jaat Teui in Hung Ga sets that you claimed to know....

I pointed out other kicks in a wide variety of other styles

I even pointed out round kicks in Seven Star Praying Mantis and Pek Gwa

You have not been able to even address these points, yet continue to try and argue

2. you have based an entire thread upon a ludicrous notion that "Tang Soo Do" represents the original Chinese martial arts from teh Tang dynasty

There is so much wrong with that entire idea I could go on for hours, but the summary would be

a) Tang Soo Do is simply based upon Shotokan karate, which is in turn a dumbed down version of Okinawan martial art

b) Furtheremore, even your assertion that it has no round kicks is incorrect

So, again, for simplicity's sake, what do you have to argue with?

I have pointed out a variety of kicks in a variety of Chinese martial arts

I have shown your "history" of Tang Soo Do to be incorrect

I have shown your analysis even of traditional Okinawan Ko-No-Kata to be incorrect

You have done nothing but dodge the issues and cite completely laughable sources

[lkfmdc]

more for you to chew on....

why does it seem to me that you start a new thread when confronted with things you can't account for? Perhaps it is just me?

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...r&pagenumber=1


Fuk Fu Kyuhn - Gwa Choih (back fist), Tung Choih (reverse punch) 3 times, turn around Deng Jeung (propping palm), step forward, Tai Jaang (upward elbow) Deng Jaang (propping elbow) Liu Yaam Jau (tiger claw to groing) Gwa Choih

Jump back, Kiuh Sau (bridge arm), then depending upon your lineage either a Tung Choih or Fu Jau into either another Liu Yaam Jau or hook hand (Ngau Sau) - THEN SIDE KICK

Lau Ga - Seung Jyu Geng Sau (double forearm blocks), Maahn Fu Deng Saan (double tiger claws at two levels), Nau Mah Got Jeung (cross step away with hook palm block), spin around and Ngau Sau Biu Jeung (hook hand and spear palm), then INVERSE SIDE KICK

It's been a while, about 18 years, but I still remember my sequences....

[Ray Pina]

Actually my argument was that "traditional" or original CMA had no round house kick AS PRACTICED TODAY.

My whole point is that those styles have taken on concepts that are wrong:

Wing Chun's fuk sau: why so nice to just cover? Same with Tan Sau. Why so nice to just open from the inside.

My understanding: hit the incoming blow: glancing off ontop (or missing) is fuk sau. Glacing off inside (or missing) is tan sau.

Looks the same. Completely different understanding. Why?

You keep bringing it back to "history", I keep trying to move it to martial (the reason I'm here in the first place.) I'm not interested in going online or the library right now.

Post the books you sourced and again, the years you taught at NYU, and I'll get back to you after Vegas if we still want to discuss the history of all this.

My dates might be wrong. I know the weapons were siezed, and I know the forms most Hung Gar guys are doing today is a far cry from what has and does work in combat. When was the last time you saw someone pull off a Butterly Palm in fighting? Who's gullible?I'm saying that sort of thing is bs.

MY entire point: why do a lot of guys do what they do? Where did it come from? What's its martial value?

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Actually my argument was that "traditional" or original CMA had no round house kick AS PRACTICED TODAY.

Unless you built a time machine and traveled back in time with a video camera, filmed the so called "original" styles and brought back the tape, you'd always be guessing at best....

We do know that the Seven Star Praying Mantis forms with the Baai Myuhn Teui, the roudn kick, existed at least 100 years ago.

The Pek Gwa form is probably a little "newer", if 80 years is "new"

But then again, Tae Kyon has been doing round kicks for over 200 years and say they learned them IN CHINA....

That's all a lot stronger evidence than anything you have presented

Originally posted by EvolutionFist


You keep bringing it back to "history", I keep trying to move it to martial (the reason I'm here in the first place.) I'm not interested in going online or the library right now.

No, actually, you were the one who posted the fairy tales and tried to build an argument based upon them. And so if you want us to take you seriously, be willing to back up your statements. That isn't unreasonable....

Originally posted by EvolutionFist


I know the forms most Hung Gar guys are doing today is a far cry from what has and does work in combat. When was the last time you saw someone pull off a Butterly Palm in fighting? Who's gullible?I'm saying that sort of thing is bs.

We've already well established that you are anything BUT a hung ga expert. I'd love you to tell Frank Yee, YC Wong, and company that Hung Ga doesn't work

Maybe if you actually understood what Wu Dip Jeung's application WAS.... nah, never mind, not worth bothering

[Merryprankster]

Personally, my view of history is that the Holocaust never happened. It's a total fabrication. I'm just as right as anybody else on this because all viewpoints apparently have equal value.

gross pre-judgments of an entire race

Actually, Sifu Ross wasn't making gross pre-judgments. He was relaying his experience with many Chinese, who have inflated their credentials. Then, he was saying he'd like to see proof of your master's claims based on his experiences.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

Actually, Sifu Ross wasn't making gross pre-judgments. He was relaying his experience with many Chinese, who have inflated their credentials. Then, he was saying he'd like to see proof of your master's claims based on his experiences.

Merryprankster just mounted the correct, he used a few punches to intimidate it and make it roll onto it's stomach, then he sunk in his hook and rear naked choked it until it gasped softly and went to sleep

[Merryprankster]

That wasn't why the correct gasped softly.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
That wasn't why the correct gasped softly.

eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[Vash]

The correct is such a *****. It also has a very deadly VD.

One which EvolutionFist has yet to contract.

By the by, EFist, would love to know the name of your style. I've got some good lyrics which would fit great over one of CPAs tracks.