why the hell is there a distinction between CMA and MMA?

[SevenStar]

good point. The judoka is another tough bastid. Still, you've got until at least 40.

[David Jamieson]

not sayin i couldn't, just saying there's not a lot of opportunities to do so for me and the training schedule and commitment level is high for comp fighting.

to go into toughmans and hobby fighting is just a waste of time and overpopulated with idiots imnsho and point fighting is about as thrilling as dry toast for me. dull stuff it is.

leave that stuff to the younger guys, but even Larry Holmes retired at forty and that mans could beat the bejesus out of most men walking cma, mma or what have you. (go larry!)

cheers

[TAO YIN]

Originally posted by seven star


here's the big MMA question. If you train in TKD, can you use it effectively? If so, then prove it. If you do and can, they will respect what you do. Even if you can't, they will respect you more for at least trying.


My question is, prove it to who? To some judges, and fans, and etcetra in a state competetion? At a regional competetion? To someone in a National competition? Or prove it on TV in Pride, UFC, King of the Cage? To the martial arts world at large? Is proving it to the guy whose arse you sent to the hospital for attacking you,,,,ok???

I was just curious because ok for instance you, I mean I don't know who you are or anything about you. And that is solely because I've never meet you, trained with you, or fought with you. And you seem as your a pretty good sportfighter right? Maybe you have some fight records and matches material somewhere......but I've never seen them, plus couldn't care. Maybe I have some fight records somewhere, and you've never seen them, and probalby you couldn' give a shiot. So I mean, what are you getting at?

I mean maybe you, or joe, or any other matial artisit prove yourself on UFC, and that is a good thing, money, fame, ego, etc...but what about the prison community,,,,do you want us to prove it in prisons and stuff? I mean, most people at Chino couldn't give a fark about UFC,,,and they would probably fare pretty well in it.


Anyways, Jus fuggin wit ya.


Tao

[CrippledAvenger]

"prove it"

To most of us in the MMA community, it's more about you actually making use of what you were taught, working successfully against an opponent who wants to take your head off. If you can do it outside of the ring (i.e. you bounce or beat up schmucks in an alleyway like a vigilante) and have it documented, more power to you. You've "proven it."

If you can't do such things for fear of legal reprocussions or lack of opportunity, the ring is the best substitute. It's not about winning a tournament, it's about using what you can under controlled circumstances with a resisting opponent. I don't care what the claim is, if you can do it and have proof of it, we will respect you. If you can just walk into a judo shiai (or hell, I might begin to belive if you can use it in randori) and demonstrate that your horse can stop a shoot, you've "proven it".

This goes for other claims like multiple opponents, weapons (read: dogbrothers), inch power, etc. We just want an independent record that documents an achievement. That's what what we mean when we say "have you proven it?"

I honestly don't know where many CMAs get this warped idea that "proving it" means you need a trophy. We just want verification, not heresay. Maybe it's a bit unfair, but to be honest there's been so many frauds from the traditional camp that it's stupid NOT to request some sort of proof.

[SevenStar]

To whomever is bustin your balls about your style. MMA guys tend to be the put up or shut up variety. If you tell me your style would simply sidestep to avoid a double leg, then show me. If you claim you can do it, you'll get called on it.

Do you have to? Nah. But so many TMA talk about how the MMA community is always bashing their style - when you look at some of them, it's not hard to understand why. Secret this, too deadly that, I have an undefeated grandmaster, etc. People want to ride on the claims their style makes, but will not try and find out themselves.

Ultimately, you really only have to prove anything to yourself, but if you won't put up, then you can't even do that, right?

[Unmatchable]

WaterDragon why don't you compete in the ufc? You could be like that 21 year old Judo guy who recently competed and won and showed them some Judo techniques. Or that Yoshida guy. Instead you would show them some Shui Chiao or beng quans or whatever, and people would worship you (for awhile).

[Unmatchable]

That's what I tried telling the internal guys. But most of them refuse to do anything about it. They want all the bashing to go away without doing anything (even putting video of themselves sparring). And than they say they would fight if they didn't have to use gloves or make up various excuses, or say video evidence of fighting would not exist because someone would die or something. I think the "Neija" community represents the worste of the cma crop including the most chi huggers.

[David Jamieson]

crip-

there's frauds in all camps. Probably just as likely to be as many teaching poor material in the mma market as the tma one.

not even wanting to go into the esoteric practices associated with tma which revile violence and the arts become a form of self cultivation gradually moving the student towards more of lifestyle practice than that of competitive fighter.

it's the natural course of things. You don't see to many tma walking around with cauliflower ears and slurred speech from being punch drunk one time too many, that's for sure.

cheers

[CrippledAvenger]

Kung Lek (and others)--

That's certainly true. But the one great thing about ring records are that they ARE verifiable. If someone tells me they're a black belt in Judo or knocked a man out in the ring, it's a simple matter of research to confirm and deny.

As for the esoteric practices, that's not really my bag, but it's also not something I rag on until you start making claims like Ling Kong Jin. Furthermore, if you wish to see martial arts as self-cultivation, more power to you. Just don't tell me you'd stop my hook with a tiger strike to the chest, if you haven't actually managed to do so on the street or in an approximation thereof.

(Note: that was a made up example, before anyone jumps on my case. )

Let's put it this way, I've put a lot of time and energy to gain the ring skills I have. It's simply insulting for someone who hasn't gotten the same skills for any number of reasons (guts, too deadly) to try to tell me how it's done. I don't tell Master Wang or Yoshida how to throw people, for example. I shut up and listen to anyone who has experience in the ring or the street.

And yes, there are risks, Kung Lek. It's understandable that you want to avoid such things. It's not a weakness of character if you don't do the things necessary to satisfy the requirement of "proof". But at the same time, don't tell people who are striving to meet that end that it "doesn't mean anything".

Just a general rant.

[TAO YIN]

nevermind seven,,,,,,,,im not sure you understood my point. but as you have answered i guess somewhat,,,,however, my first post didn't make much sense anyways......


what you were speaking of was strictly the mma community,,,,but what does this community consist of?

but with what you have answered.....are you telling me that people actually come up to you during the day and bust your balls about the style or styles you play,,,,,,,or do you as an mmaer or whatever, actually go up to people and say that...i practice different arts but don't go up to people and bust there balls about it. so what do you mean?

in any event, i never have really understood the point of this whole mma thing vs tma thing anyways,,,,,,fighting is about speed, power, timing,,,,,,no matter what the style, no matter what the event, no matter who the person,,,,,,if you want to kick someone hard enough to hurt them you have to be able to react quicker than them, or be able to wear some beatings and then still react at some point quicker than them,,,,,if you want to punch same thing, if you want to trap same thing, if you want to grapple same thing.....any good fighter from any style knows that for fighting there is a time for everything. When it is time to punch punch, when it is time to kick, kick, when it is time to trap, do so, when it is time to shoot,,,,,,,then freaking shoot so hard that as soon as the mid of the guys back hits the concrete, your elbow has cracked his adams apple, and splattered his head on the concrete.....then ground and pound......then choke him out.....and back, and to the left.







rocekt scence it hard

[rubthebuddha]

WD -- xeno is spot on. you saying that got me thinking about fear -- fear of being proven wrong, inadequate, or simply unable to do in an uncontrolled environment what you've been practicing for the past x-number of years against friendly opponents. that, and a general fear of having someone shoot in and take your ass to the ground before he starts pulping your mug.
btw -- sorry about the toe "jab," but crippy was just askin for it.

tao yin -- proving should only be to yourself, as a matter of being honest with yourself. a math equation or a scientific hypothesis isn't valid until scrutiny happens. same with a technique or ability. many wing chun people (not this one ) are notorious for thinking their bong sau can stop anything. anyone that tells me this simply gets my one suggestion -- block a thai round kick with it, tell me if either your forearm or face/body survives unscathed. never do i get a "good idea" as a response. it's always, "i know it can do it, and that's all i need." anyone who's FELT (not seen, but felt, even if only through holding thai kick shields for someone) knows such a belief to be bull****, but those who haven't usually trust their own guess and don't actually test it. thus, they think they know, but they fail to test it, and by that, they aren't being truly honest with themselves about the technique. competition is a valid format to test what you know in a semi-controlled environment (ref, ring doctor, corner trainers with a towel ready to throw, etc.) against someone who's just as eager to test his own stuff. and it's a simple way to find out just how solid a bong sau really is.

[TAO YIN]

rub the buddha,

i totally understand. if everyone is basically saying that tma/cma means that you have never tested it and yo go around saying bong saus work against thai kicks, (people actually say this?) im too deadly, i got dim mak, and i kill people,,,,,,,,,,,and never having tested any of it,,,,,,,,,,,,,then fark cma and tma.......on the other hand, if doing mma means that you have never been in a street fight and either injured someone or got injured, but you have been in lots of ring fights and your the coolest, then fark that too......also if being an mmaist means that you truly believe punching the throat is a waste of time,,,,,,then fark that too.

[rubthebuddha]

'tis correct. and don't forget the proverbial "been accosted by a low-level threat who really doesn't warrant getting the shat beat out of him" -- the type of threat that warrants softer restraints. a drunk on the street can be a great threat, but if someone is so sloshed that they struggle stand, yet he or she still picks a fight with you, putting fist through nose really isn't the best idea. tie 'em up and call the po-po, but don't break someone that doesn't warrant a breaking.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Unmatchable
WaterDragon why don't you compete in the ufc? You could be like that 21 year old Judo guy who recently competed and won and showed them some Judo techniques. Or that Yoshida guy. Instead you would show them some Shui Chiao or beng quans or whatever, and people would worship you (for awhile).

Are you being sarcastic, or do you really think that a 30 year old father of 2 who works 12 hour days and is lucky to get in 8 hours of training a week can just walk into the UFC and be competetive?

Also, I don't want anyone to worship me. That's not how I am.

[David Jamieson]

Crip-

I don't know if the ring is the best place to proove anything to be honest. I can think of more than one or two boxers who rose through the ranks by fighting bums. lol

In actuality there is a lot of that. Put a guy through 10 fights with sub standard fighters to bring the record up to where the guy gets a shot at a real fighter. Not that uncommon, particularly in boxing.

The pool of terrific fighters is relatively small, and for the most part, none of us are gonna get that far. there is no proof, there is no victory in beating someone who doesn't have the skills to match you.

Evenly matched fights are undeniably the best ones for the observer and for the fighters. A real test of skill. An underdog taking out a favourite is also some proof.

But the majority of it is a whole lotta meatsmacking.
Let's face it, to find decent fighters is like finding american idols LOL. 100,000 people will try out, but in the end, maybe 4 of them are any good. An off day can take any of em out. the rest are there as filler so we the audience have something to watch while we wait for the real talent.

Anyway, it's not for everyone, but the exercise is good for everyone.

cheers