Just started Wing Chun

[heelkick]

I've been looking for a good WC school for quite awhile but there isn't like even one WC school in orange county, ca. But I happened to come across a sihing who teaches out of his house and he keeps the class size very small so that everyone gets a lot of attention, and the price is really good too. All these guys seem to have a true love for the art and they are very humble and have no ego. This is really important to me as I checked out so many schools and they are too commercialized or have black belt clubs, contracts...etc.

The only thing I was dissapointed in was when the sihing told me that his students didn't do wd form/training until much later on. I thought wooden dummy was essential for wc training and for toughening of the forearms? At what point in your training should you start to work on that form? Is the time frame within years or how many forms you learn?

Also, if anyone can give me some other pointers as to what to look for to make sure I'm getting proper training. Thanks for any help it will be appreciated.

[chris]

"I thought wooden dummy was essential for wc training and for toughening of the forearms? At what point in your training should you start to work on that form? Is the time frame within years or how many forms you learn?"

The purpose of the wooden dummy is not toughening the forearms.

There is some variation across teachers - my first teacher started showing me the first part of the dummy form when he started teaching chum kiu - this was probably earlier than the norm.

The dummy is useful for practicing the techniques you will be learning even before starting the dummy form. Did your teacher say anything about using the dummy in this manner?

[kj]

Originally posted by heelkick
The only thing I was dissapointed in was when the sihing told me that his students didn't do wd form/training until much later on. I thought wooden dummy was essential for wc training and for toughening of the forearms? At what point in your training should you start to work on that form? Is the time frame within years or how many forms you learn?

The time for learning weapons and dummy varies wildly from school to school, teacher to teacher. As does the nature and quality of instruction. Everyone will have their own view about appropriate timing and use of such tools.

A few of my own thoughts:

• Some people use the dummy as a conditioning tool for the arms. In contrast, I distinctly and very intentionally do not use the dummy for this purpose. Any conditioning effect is ancillary.
• The dummy and weapons were traditionally (and with good reason) advanced forms. Precious time is often wasted (or worse, bad habits developed) by training them before one's foundation is solidly built.
• The dummy and weapons forms are indeed useful aids in learning and development. Otherwise we wouldn't have them, tending to be seekers of efficiency as we are, and thus also degrees of minimalism. However, high levels of skill and knowledge do not hinge on these tools. They are indeed aids rather than essentials for building skill and capability, in my estimation.
• What builds strong kung fu is proper practice and work effort over time. There is no tool that will assure this. There is also no tool, the lack of which, will prevent this if we apply ourselves. Kung fu is something we must earn from the inside out, not something which can be conferred upon us by teachers or objects.
• I don't judge my training by what everyone else seems to be doing. I judge it by what is right for me, and what I need to be doing. For me, it's a personal quest, not a contest. There is no race to the finish line (or to the weapons or dummy).

Despite popular claims, I do not believe in such a thing as "instant" kung fu. If someone tries to tell or sell you otherwise, I'd caution you to be wary. All good things take time.*

Also originally posted by heelkick
I've been looking for a good WC school for quite awhile but there isn't like even one WC school in orange county, ca.

IMHO, a "school" is best defined by those who learn and teach there, rather than by a location, building, or trappings. If I'm not mistaken, I believe there are several schools (by my definition) in that area, though they may not all be easy to locate.

But I happened to come across a sihing who teaches out of his house and he keeps the class size very small so that everyone gets a lot of attention, and the price is really good too. All these guys seem to have a true love for the art and they are very humble and have no ego. This is really important to me as I checked out so many schools and they are too commercialized or have black belt clubs, contracts...etc.

If, in addition to the atmosphere, the quality of instruction and learning is also high, then you are most fortunate, with a rare opportunity at hand. It could be loss if impatience rules the day.

Having said that, I fully appreciate that we all, as individuals, have differing goals, personal needs, and expectations. More often than we might like to think, we even hold different definitions of what Wing Chun is. And some of us are by nature more or less patient than others. If your expectations or desires are insistently opposed to those of the prospective school, then it will likely serve everyone best for you to choose a different avenue, regardless of the quality of learning available there.

Perhaps these are some things to think about anyway. Sometimes our "wants" change over time, as we continuously discover what we really "need." I would encourage you to get out to see and experience for yourself as many exponents of Wing Chun as you can; and other martial artists as well. Early on, we must take a great deal of our training on faith. As our experience, understanding and skills grow, we become better equipped to reasonably challenge that faith, ensuring it is well founded. And moreover, moving toward higher states of confidence through personal knowledge, skill, and experience.

Best wishes in your training.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

* A "grook," by Piet Hein

TTT

Put up in a place
where it's easy to see
the cryptic admonishment
T.T.T.

When you feel how depressingly
slowly you climb,
it's well to remember that
Things Take Time.

[old jong]

The lady is worth listening to!...

[JAFO]

Learning most martial arts can be compared to (among other things) learning math. A student just getting into math starts out with the primary operations - addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. Even within those operations, the progression is cumulative. You can't learn division until you have some grasp of the other three. A teacher would never start a kid out with algebra or calculus.

The way most schools teach the MA, the forms are cumulative skill sets that are intended to guide the student in a progression. The only thing that happens when a new student is working on more than one form is that they have more forms to practice. There's no point and very little benefit to working on a form before the prerequisites have been addressed. A beginning student in most any style that uses sets or forms would almost never get their first instruction in the form of, say, a Black Belt-level kata in karate. There's no point in it, and it would detract from the student's progression rate rather than shorten it.

Biu Jee/Bil Jee/Third Form is a more 'advanced' form and teaches, among other things, how to recover and even prevail a compromised position and how to break certain rules under certain conditions. However, the student can't learn how to bend (really, apply it in a more advanced and less apparent manner) a rule until they have some understanding of how that rule works in the first place.

Same thing with the Dummy. That form has the student doing things like 2-handed contact, switching gates, safely stepping across the front of their adversary's gates at contact distance, concurrently combining attacks at the upper and lower gates, etc.. There's no way a student can take advantage of any of these skills without adressing the requisite foundation skills and experience.

Spend your time working on your 'basic' forms' (SLT/CK) and don't cheat yourself. You almost can't hone them enough. Really, those are the skills you would most commonly use in a fight anyway. The other forms are somewhat an extension of these skills rather than a separate set.

I was under the impression there are at least a couple WC schools in OC; there are lots of very reputable schools in LA County and other areas. You definitely have options within a 1-hour driving range. Good WC can be hard to find and I'd say it's worth the drive. What city are you in?

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by heelkick
At what point in your training should you start to work on that form?

Whenever your sifu tells you to. Don't shoot a gift horse in the mouth.

[heelkick]

Thanx for all of the replies so far, it's been a great inspiration to read them.

chris said:

"The dummy is useful for practicing the techniques you will be learning even before starting the dummy form. Did your teacher say anything about using the dummy in this manner?"

He stated the opposite in fact. He was very adamant about creating a very solid foundation for the beginner and how important it was for any advanced teaching that occurs later on. He seems to want to instill an ethic of quality over quantity. It appeared in his opinion that the dummy was an aid not a requirement to become a good WC practitioner, and that as a student being very dilligent in my efforts in SLT and CK was very key.

[chris]

Heelkick wrote,
"He stated the opposite in fact. He was very adamant about creating a very solid foundation for the beginner and how important it was for any advanced teaching that occurs later on. He seems to want to instill an ethic of quality over quantity. It appeared in his opinion that the dummy was an aid not a requirement to become a good WC practitioner, and that as a student being very dilligent in my efforts in SLT and CK was very key."

I think your teacher has given you good advice - not sure that practicing tan sao and pak sao on the dummy constitutes advanced teaching though.

[Nick Forrer]

Not much more to add to all the good advice except a couple of all purpose truisms

first 'tall houses built on weak foundations collapse easily' so make sure you have very good basics- having a good stance and being able to turn correctly is particularly important as this is both how you generate power and how you absorb and divert incoming force away from your centre of gravity.

second 'rome wasn't built in a day'. Don't get frustrated and just enjoy the journey.

Regards

Nick

[Gangsterfist]

Welcome to Wing Chun.

I think you found a good class. My sifu teaches a very small class twice to three times a week. I go every class, some of my fellow brothers/sisters and sihings do not. I think there are about 10 of us who go constantly and then we have the stragglers who show up every once in a while.

Wing chun is my third or fourth martial art I have taken and taiji quan is my 4th or 5th (my sifu also has many years of yang family taiji). I had to break a lot of bad habbits from my old martial arts when training wing chun. I am not saying what I had learned was wrong or bad, its just different than WC. I too was very excited to learn the wooden dummy. All of my previous systems did not have any kind of wooden dummy in it. So I understand your feeling.

Just remember once you learn the full SLT (first form) you basically learn every wing chun technique.

The Dummy is a tool of wing chun. My sifu teaches us basic techniques on the dummy as we progress in wing chun. For example stepping around the dummy with pok, tan, quan, dibon tan, kicks etc. The early techniques you will learn in my class are not a form, more like drills. The purpose is to not move the dummy, but to move around it and effect it. Conditioning from dummy form/drills are just a bonus. They will make your arms harder in time.

I remember when I first learned chi sao. I thought to myself, kick ass now I am learning the advanced stuff.

So just be patient with it. It will come in time. Sooner or later you will be applying wing chun to everything you do and you will see exactly how effecient it can really be. You just have to work hard and you will get the results you want. My sifu always told us that kung fu was like pushing a boulder upstream on a river. Its very hard work, and if you take one day off you get pushed downstream three days.

[heelkick]

Gangsterfist --

which instructor do you learn WC from?

[Gangsterfist]

I train Yip Man lineage, but I live in the midwest. If you want more info PM me, and I can send you some webistes of my sigong, siboks, and sifu's stuff.

My point is a lot of those small class not largely advertised schools are good stuff. I can only say this based on my personal experience though. I have taken a few forms of karate which was in a dojo that had a lot of students. I think I learn more in the smaller class. Plus we train outdoors when its nice which I really like. In the larger school it seemed that I learned at a slower rate. However, it could also be because WC is more simple and easier to pick up, who knows.

Good luck with your training.

[Gangsterfist]

Also if you can find Ernie on this forum, I believe he is from L.A. and perhaps he could suggest some people to train with. He is usually on this forum, but if I recall correctly he is having computer problems right now.

[anerlich]

It appeared in his opinion that the dummy was an aid not a requirement to become a good WC practitioner, and that as a student being very dilligent in my efforts in SLT and CK was very key.

This is excellent advice.

The dummy is a useful training aid when your live partners get bored, or have other commitments. It's not an end in itself, and is not IMHO necessary to gain WC skills. You can hit it a lot harder than you can a training partner, but bags of various kinds can fulfill that requirement.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Kathy Jo and Andrew Nerlich:

While I liked both of your posts about the Wooden Dummy - I would like to add a slightly different bent on the matter:

While I agree that the Wooden Dummy should not be taught until a significant amount of time has been spent on SLT, Chum Kiu, chi sao, etc...

After a certain point in one's development - the WD is an advanced next step in three major ways:

1) It teaches certain combat applications and follow-up moves not found in the forms and chi sao...while expanding SIGNIFICANTLY on certain moves that are fo